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Poll: What level of math is programming roughly analogous to?

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Re: Poll: What level of math is programming roughly analogous to?

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the countries that excel over the United States in mathematics instruction, proof is part of every mathematics course, not just part of geometry, for example. Can you expand on that? What do students do in other mathematical areas if they don't do proofs? I did all of my studies in France and I don't how much of a difference there is (though all my friends who have studied both in the US and in France found the…

US math courses for high schoolers often goes along the following path: Algebra, Geometry, Algebra II (basic linear algebra, but often not discussed as such, and other concepts), Trigonometry, Precalculus (1/2 semester each of the last two) and then Calculus. Of course, that adds up to 5 years so unless a student took Algebra I in middle school (year 8) they won't complete the full sequence, leaving calculus for coll…

> The structure of formal proofs is taught in geometry. That's pretty much the only course where students are expected to prove theorems about the subject via proofs. In most of the other courses students are taught the formulas and techniques, axioms and theorems, but then apply them, rather than attempt to develop or prove them themselves. They're also, typically, not shown a proof of the theorems they learn, they're just told to accept them.

Wow! I can't even imagine how that works. When I went to school (and that's in Europe, not Asia), the notions of theorem and proof were taught in the fifth year of school (out of 12 pre-college years -- 8 in elementary, 4 in high school). That was, indeed, as part of geometry. Starting from high school, however, pretty much no formula is given without prior demonstration. Subjects where they can't do that (like mechanics -- that's taught in Physics prior to pre-calculus and calculus) are a royal fuckup. You aren't usually expected to be able to reproduce the proofs for those formulae, but a) you're strongly encouraged to study them, because they help you with the exercises and b) it's usually implied that, if you can't remember the formula, but you can prove it, it's OK. For example, if you can't finish a problem in a test because you don't know the formula, but you obviously try to find it, the professor will sometimes give you full credit, depending on circumstances and following a short talk.

I didn't even like math back then, save for geometry, but I reckon this was the most important thing I learned there. Unless you're dumber than a toaster, you're typically able to apply what you learned to everyday phenomenae after ten years of school; the bonus you get is also being able to reason rigorously and correctly, which is an important takeaway no matter what path you choose to follow.

Re: Poll: What level of math is programming roughly analogous to?

#82

I think programming actually requires linguistic skills. When you program you are actually writing in a language, and you have to respect it's syntax and structure. Therefore I don't think it should be compared with math. Unless you are writing a program for a very specific scientific problem that requires the elaboration of a mathematical model. Usually the computer does all the math, all you need to do is type the…

This goes to the heart of the real issue. Programming is expression, more linguistic then maths. What would a lisp program with heavy macro usage map to? Or a newLisp program with fexprs? The programming concepts are abstractions and transformations more akin to how we change words meaning then how you calculate some lines.

Re: Poll: What level of math is programming roughly analogous to?

#83

In a lot of way programming is at the level of the programmer. If your son likely to know that some problem he's solving is best accomplished implementation of Dijkstra's algorithm or that for some aspect of his program it might be sensible to use a bloom filter? No. But will this stop him from creating what he's trying to create? No. Programming is a progression from being able to give logical directions and knowing…

Precisely, a good programmer is more akin to a general organisations and marshalling code blocks then a mathematician calculating his way forward manually.

But i guess this is a difference between extraverted and introverted thinking.

Re: Poll: What level of math is programming roughly analogous to?

#84
Isn't that like saying "Is trig on the level of precalculus or algebra?" It depends on what you are doing. Plane trig and spherical trig are worlds apart.

I think that this says more about the level of programming that people are doing than how hard programming is.

Re: Poll: What level of math is programming roughly analogous to?

#86
Isn't Logic a subject in maths? I upvoted Discrete Mathematics, because that's the area of maths programming is in, but at the same time I programming is infinitely more simple and intuitive (to me) than Discrete Mathematics is.

Anyway, we had two logic courses (Introduction to Logic and Advanced Logic) which also have close connections to programming.

Re: Poll: What level of math is programming roughly analogous to?

#88
post #68

Programming isn't analogous to math, programming is a communication language with really strict rules that uses math of all stages. Different tasks involve different math. I'll give some common examples for laymen, but they may seem obvious in hindsight: Programming a very rudimentary "snake" computer game is [using] using Algebra. If your son (or anyone) understands variables, assignment and adding them together, th…

Mathematics is also a "communication language with really strict rules". In one sense, programming often uses math. And math often uses programming. But, in a deeper sense, programming is math and math is programming. They're just different views on the same underlying ideas. They're different fields of study mainly because the priorities are so different. Of course, this doesn't mean it makes sense to map Objective-…

Mathematics can easily be applied to anything from cooking to theoretical physics. That doesn't make any of these things math or the other way around. You can use math to solve a programming problem (perhaps to a greater extent than in cooking) and you can express many of the problems in mathematical terms, but in the end math is an abstract tool and programming is not.

Re: Poll: What level of math is programming roughly analogous to?

#89
The OP's question assumes that some topics are inherently more difficult to learn than others which isn't necessarily so. But in terms of the way knowledge is structured programming could be regarded as a practical application of computer science, which in turn may be regarded as the science of what can and can't be mathematically proved. When you check a mathematical proof a computation is being performed involving your brain and a piece of paper. And nowadays some proofs incorporate computer programs too.

Re: Poll: What level of math is programming roughly analogous to?

#90
Been programming 15 years professionally and I'm fairly poor at maths. My arithetic is not great, I know a little trigonometry.

Having said that I've made build 3D engine all the way up from rendering 2D triangles (had to watch quite a few videos to get the maths right).

This is definitely an apples to oranges comparison.

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