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Theirself or Themself?

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Re: Theirself or Themself?

#21

Post by blueblob »

collyw wrote: post #16

Does it really matter? That's the beauty of interacting with real people rather than a computer. You can make small mistakes, and even bigger ones and people will understand you. Hell I should know I live in Spain, and my Spanish grammar is crap.

People are working on getting computers to understand small mistakes as well. There is more than one type of grammar in computer science. A generative grammar which might be used for responses can be different than a grammar that is used for recognition. The one used for recognition should understand mistakes, but the one used for responses should not.

Re: Theirself or Themself?

#22

Post by gr3yh47 »

normloman wrote: post #18

Writer here. The author is a programmer. An expert in formal languages. Formal languages have to be logically consistent. Not English. "Themselves" is correct, even if it's inconsistent, because it's what most people say and understand. That's the point of a natural language. Not to be neat and orderly, but to be understood.

"Themselves" is correct because it is plural. What of the singular?

Re: Theirself or Themself?

#23

Post by logfromblammo »

gr3yh47 wrote: post #3

"himself" is the technically correct word for singular reflexive when the gender is unknown

The best kind of correct.

Thanks to feminist grammarians, "herself" is also correct. Or else you'll have to check your privilege, or some equally horrible fate. Though this suggests that the default gender for unknown animate third person pronouns should remain consistent throughout your entire written work. The writer should probably just pick his own gender unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise.

One such reason could be the conditional probability for the subject being male or female, depending on what you already know about him. Engineer? Him. Elementary schoolteacher? Her. Someone got a mammogram? Her. Someone got a Darwin award? Him. If the conditional probability is 50% either way, you just pick your own gender, as above.

Re: Theirself or Themself?

#24

Post by normloman »

gr3yh47 wrote: post #22
normloman wrote: post #18

Writer here. The author is a programmer. An expert in formal languages. Formal languages have to be logically consistent. Not English. "Themselves" is correct, even if it's inconsistent, because it's what most people say and understand. That's the point of a natural language. Not to be neat and orderly, but to be understood.

"Themselves" is correct because it is plural. What of the singular?

You're not getting it.

It's not correct because it's plural. It's correct because most people agree that it's correct. If every english speaker on earth simultaneously decided that "xivuewq" was the correct reflexive form, that's what we would use.

Now in my experience, even when people use the singular "they," most people use "themselves" as the reflexive in that context. A few might use "themself," but they are in the minority. Best to use the widely accepted "themselves" in formal writing, then.

Re: Theirself or Themself?

#25

Post by gr3yh47 »

collyw wrote: post #16

Does it really matter? That's the beauty of interacting with real people rather than a computer. You can make small mistakes, and even bigger ones and people will understand you. Hell I should know I live in Spain, and my Spanish grammar is crap.

among other reasons, having rules matters precisely to ENABLE the making of small mistakes while still preserving the whole idea being communicated.

without the rules, the language has no meaning whatsoever.

Re: Theirself or Themself?

#26

Post by jonnathanson »

gr3yh47 wrote: post #22
normloman wrote: post #18

Writer here. The author is a programmer. An expert in formal languages. Formal languages have to be logically consistent. Not English. "Themselves" is correct, even if it's inconsistent, because it's what most people say and understand. That's the point of a natural language. Not to be neat and orderly, but to be understood.

"Themselves" is correct because it is plural. What of the singular?

"Them" is a plural word in the first place, so attempting to hybridize it with the singular and form "themself" is incorrect and awkward. There is no singular "them." In the case where one uses "them" to refer to a singular subject of indeterminate gender, "them" doesn't actually become singular; rather, it's simply being used as a free variable.

It's increasingly acceptable to use "them" to refer to a singular subject when the gender is unknown. All but the strictest prescriptivists would now accept that usage. But if a writer picks "them" over "him/her," he should use it with internal, self-referential consistency.

Re: Theirself or Themself?

#27

Post by gr3yh47 »

spellboots wrote: post #19
gr3yh47 wrote: post #3

"himself" is the technically correct word for singular reflexive when the gender is unknown

It used to be technically correct. Today, it is technically incorrect, because society today acknowledges that women are full, living, breathing human beings and may in fact be referred to as such in polite conversation.

When you know you're referring to a woman, sure. But when the gender is unclear, it shouldn't be a feminism issue. This entire argument has always seemed ridiculous to me, and I mean really, go look at the Spanish language...

Re: Theirself or Themself?

#28

Post by gr3yh47 »

normloman wrote: post #24
gr3yh47 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Themselves" is correct because it is plural. What of the singular?

You're not getting it. It's not correct because it's plural. It's correct because most people agree that it's correct. If every english speaker on earth simultaneously decided that "xivuewq" was the correct reflexive form, that's what we would use. Now in my experience, even when people use the singular "they," most people use "themselves" as the reflexive in that context. A few might use "themself," but they are in…

Actually, you're not getting it.

While the use of 'them' and 'themselves' is increasingly acceptable informally, it still violates basic rules of plurality that most people agree upon, and is thus formally incorrect.

Re: Theirself or Themself?

#29

Post by normloman »

gr3yh47 wrote: post #28
normloman wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not getting it. It's not correct because it's plural. It's correct because most people agree that it's correct. If every english speaker on earth simultaneously decided that "xivuewq" was the correct reflexive form, that's what we would use. Now in my experience, even when people use the singular "they," most people use "themselves" as the reflexive in that context. A few might use "themself," but they are in…

Actually, you're not getting it. While the use of 'them' and 'themselves' is increasingly acceptable informally, it still violates basic rules of plurality that most people agree upon, and is thus formally incorrect.

No. you're still not getting it. Violating basic rules that everyone agrees on happens all the time. It's called irregularity, and English is full of it. Irregular plurals are common, and correct, because they have fallen into common usage.

Re: Theirself or Themself?

#30

Post by gr3yh47 »

jonnathanson wrote: post #26
gr3yh47 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Themselves" is correct because it is plural. What of the singular?

"Them" is a plural word in the first place, so attempting to hybridize it with the singular and form "themself" is incorrect and awkward. There is no singular "them." In the case where one uses "them" to refer to a singular subject of indeterminate gender, "them" doesn't actually become singular; rather, it's simply being used as a free variable. It's increasingly acceptable to use "them" to refer to a singular subje…

> There is no singular "them."

exactly why it is incorrect to use in the singular.

and this is the difference between formal and informal.

there are rules that are widely accepted (formal) and then there are actual usages that are widely accepted (informal)

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