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Get Facebook WiFi for your business

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Re: Get Facebook WiFi for your business

#221

Post by TeMPOraL »

acdha wrote: post #192
TeMPOraL wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the things that really saddens me about the world we live in - we can't have nice things, because everything is being optimized for the average use case, and average people just don't care much about anything, especially quality.

> average people just don't care much about anything, especially quality. That's incredibly arrogant, and more than a little naive. The problem is that you're only looking at the small part of the problem which you understand better than the average person. Think about it instead from the perspective of the ice cream shop owner: they're not making any money from your using the network. You might look at the a Faceboo…

I upvoted you because your point is reasonable and rational, but let me explain what I meant by my comment.

I do not believe that the ice cream shop owner is doing anything wrong - he's optimizing his business to be maximally cost-effective to him. My complaint is about the current "reality", the system overall. We keep focusing on the average user, or on the most common denominator, cutting corners and making everything as cheaply as possible. This is not wrong. I understand the reasons why things are like that, but it doesn't change the fact that it makes me sad.

When you look at movies (or video games), you don't see typos, or subpar, broken, dumb tech. Because the worlds are animated by designers, everything is perfect and beautiful. Real life is not made by graphic designers, but I still wish there was a little more beauty in it. A bit less typos, a bit more caring about quality, long-term consequences and general look&feel. They say that perfect is the enemy of good. We live in a world of good enough. I just wish, on an emotional level, things were a bit closer to the "perfect" side.

(disclaimer: I grew up on Star Trek: TNG and later)

(disclaimer2: this comment is written after a few beers, so please forgive the lousy style)

Re: Get Facebook WiFi for your business

#222

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

madeofpalk wrote: post #216
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My POV is... look, you get to be as contrarian as you want. Feel free to never jump on the Dictatorship band wagon. But understand you're in the minority. The Dictator is that big, and is that established in our culture. So, feel free, choose your own path, but then stop whining about the hassle of being in the minority. Nobody cares about your freedom concerns.

Well that's a strawman argument if I've ever seen one

As you don't seem to know what a strawman argument is, let me explain:

A strawman argument is when you misrepresent the position of your opponent in order to have something that is easier to argue against so as to avoid addressing your opponent's arguments. Arguing against a strawman is fallacious because of the misrepresentation: Your arguments only invalidate the strawman position, not the position of your opponent, but you present it as if those were the same.

What you are seeing above is called an analogy: You present an argument that is similar in structure to what your opponent is using, but which explicitly uses different details, in order to make a problem with the argument's structure stand out more clearly.

The important difference is whether there is misrepresentation - just reframing an argument does not make a strawman, as long as you don't attribute the reframed version to your opponent.

edit: To whoever voted this down: Mind to explain why you think explaining to people how to avoid fallaciously accusing others of fallacious reasoning or dishonest arguments is not a good idea?

Re: Get Facebook WiFi for your business

#223

Post by fastball »

joosters wrote: post #160
msoad wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't be surprised if Facebook gets to access to data about who purchases what and when I would sell all my transaction history for $5/month. Why should I care if their ads are getting better when I never pay attention to ads?

I never pay attention to ads Just about everyone thinks this. But you're wrong. It's pretty much impossible not to be affected by advertising. Sure, you don't click on the links, but the product placement and brand awareness is not something that you can turn off!

Ok... so now I'm affected by ads that are actually relevant to my life... not sure how this is a bad thing.

Re: Get Facebook WiFi for your business

#224

Post by debt »

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #218
debt wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like a drug, nobody knows yet the long term effects of Facebook. So when someone acts super paranoid about the effects of something yet unproven, other people come out of the woodwork and try to give the guy some perspective. It's kind of the same negative attitudes we see towards GMO's, drones or RF radiation. I mean people could easily flip their perspective and, instead, see these tools as very powerful and, if us…

Your point is? That we should not argue ("whine") because we might be wrong? Also, how come you only list other negative attitudes to things that are either still controversial or scientifically validated as probably harmless? How about asbestos, PCB, lots of CO2 in the atmosphere, the Stasi? Also, are you arguing that we only ever should take action when the end results are in, never because of predictions, because…

Im saying its just a social network. Its not going to give you csncer or arrest you in the night or cause massive floods.

And the negative predictions related to privacy about Facdbook are largely conspiracy theories. We should take action when something seems plausible and in line with the most accurate, unbiased information out there.

I know you're making a general statement about uncertainty but I hadnt mentionsd it. The only uncertainty in my mind about Facebook is how it will shape our culture's perspective on privacy in the future. Some are paranoid, others seem to be sharing more and more of their personal lives with Facebook. I dont know how that will change.

Re: Get Facebook WiFi for your business

#225

Post by cycrutchfield »

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #212
cycrutchfield wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If those are your terms, it's up to the customer to decide whether they would accept those terms in exchange for the water. I don't see the problem

My question was not whether the customer can decide to take my water or not, the question was whether it would be wrong to argue for getting rid of the radon, or maybe to ask for radon-free water because you are concerned about your health.

No, of course it's not wrong. You can argue until you are blue in the face. Go right ahead...

Re: Get Facebook WiFi for your business

#226

Post by marincounty »

carlob wrote: post #109

Real conversation happened to me in an ice cream shop with a home-brewed facebook captive portal in Cambridge, MA. me: Excuse me, is there a way to log into the wifi if you don't have a facebook account? clerk: No, we've had a lots people doing illegal stuff on our wifi, so we need to verify their identity. me: I understand, however I don't have a facebook account. Would you like to verify my identity with a photo id…

Yes, "Just make one with a fake name!". It's pathetic it's come to this, but I have found people don't really care about privacy. I think we need another Mcarthy Era in order for the masses to really take notice? Sure we complain, but too many of us just go along with the status quo. I gave up, and just use a pseudonym.

Re: Get Facebook WiFi for your business

#227

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

debt wrote: post #224
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your point is? That we should not argue ("whine") because we might be wrong? Also, how come you only list other negative attitudes to things that are either still controversial or scientifically validated as probably harmless? How about asbestos, PCB, lots of CO2 in the atmosphere, the Stasi? Also, are you arguing that we only ever should take action when the end results are in, never because of predictions, because…

Im saying its just a social network. Its not going to give you csncer or arrest you in the night or cause massive floods. And the negative predictions related to privacy about Facdbook are largely conspiracy theories. We should take action when something seems plausible and in line with the most accurate, unbiased information out there. I know you're making a general statement about uncertainty but I hadnt mentionsd…

So, it can have a massive impact, but it's "just a social network"? How do you know the massive impact is going to be positive, and otherwise it's "just a social network"?

North Korea is also a social network, BTW, and it doesn't give you cancer either, nor does it cause massive floods. Yeah, somewhat unfair way of framing it, isn't it? But then so is bringing up (somewhat) unpreventable illnesses and natural disasters, don't you think? And it's not like social structures weren't responsible for some of the worst things that happened in human history, dwarfing by far any flood.

Would you mind sharing some of the conspiracy theories? Most of the arguments I know are based around the abuse potential of large data collections and surveillance systems and the tendency of some people to abuse power (both of which have plenty of historical examples - after all, that's part of why democracy and the rule of law and separation of powers and all that was invented), but I can't seem to remember any conspiracy theories.

I agree fully that we should take action when something seems plausible and in line with the most accurate, unbiased information out there - I might want to add though that the level of confidence required should be weighted by the expected damage if something goes wrong, the larger the expected damage, the more cautious we should be (and analogously for the expected benefits, of course).

Also, in addition to some paranoid people, there are people who are concerned because of well-informed and well thought out arguments. I for one am very concerned indeed. That does not mean in any way that I can't appreciate some of the benefits (it seems to make electronic communication for the common user very easy, it seems, for example), but I also see large risks, and I think there are alternatives from the technical perspective that should be able to provide much the same benefits without the risks, which is why I think that society should probably try to get rid of Facebook, at least the way it currently functions.

Re: Get Facebook WiFi for your business

#229

Post by caprad »

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #206
caprad wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you imagine, the clerk has access to the a wifi panel where he can just enter in your details, match it to your mac address, and you can bypass the facebook login? That this guy has been trained on a complex system, which has very little use, makes them no direct extra money, would be more expensive and a pain in the ass? So you acting like a jerk just makes you look stupid, and then you write about it online…

So, asking for alternatives to what you consider ethically questionable makes you a jerk then? And opression is not to be questioned if getting rid of it and its externalities would cost something?

Ha, come on, is this oppression? And the problem we all have is that this guy is taking it out on the clerk, who has no responsibility in deciding this, has no control, and present a reasonable solution despite not having too.

The guy who went there for ice cream is more to blame than the clerk in this issue.

Re: Get Facebook WiFi for your business

#230

Post by zaidf »

maaaats wrote: post #194
shitlord wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

before, we could use the free wifi without a facebook account

No, before many shops would not even offer free wifi. This will enable more shops to have it.

We advise a lot of small businesses and are seriously considering recommending the adoption of this if it helps them get likes to their fb page. Capturing fb likes from existing and happiest customers is a challenge for every small business.
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