Five Paragraph Essays • Hacker News Board

Re: Five Paragraph Essays

#31

Post by jseliger » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 7:25 PM UTC

jccalhoun wrote: post #19

While I totally agree that the 5 paragraph essay format can be restrictive and is not suited for every situation, I think a good thesis statement in the first paragraph or two is frequently a good idea. Too often while reading posts online I often find that I'm most of the way through the post before I find out what point the author is trying to make. There are cases where keeping the actual point of the post or stor…

While I totally agree that the 5 paragraph essay format can be restrictive and is not suited for every situation, I think a good thesis statement in the first paragraph or two is frequently a good idea

In many circumstances it is. I wrote an essay that describes the thesis statement issue: "Paul Graham and not being as right as he could be in 'The Age of the Essay'" (https://jseliger.wordpress.com/2011/12/02/paul-graham-and-no...).

I've also discovered from teaching college freshmen that having a thesis statement usually improves the quality of their work product. But experienced writers working in some genres don't need thesis statements and indeed would be constrained by them (that's one of pg's points in "The Age of the Essay:" http://www.paulgraham.com/essay.html), and inexperienced writers probably need thesis statements to avoid a document filled with random thoughts. In this respect thesis statements are like training wheels.

Re: Five Paragraph Essays

#32

Post by hyp0 » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 7:26 PM UTC

I find speaking aloud does result in a better flowing essay.

But I wonder which effects are due to the speaking; and which to how speaking reminds you that you are trying to communicate to someone, and give them something of value?

Consider the problem-solving technique of explaining the problem to someone - which also works well when explaining it to a duck. Would writing a letter to a duck work as well as telling it? Is the helpfulness inextricably tied to verbalizing?

Re: Five Paragraph Essays

#33

Post by jseliger » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 7:29 PM UTC

grellas wrote: post #29

A nice post whose essential point is that you should eschew formulaic methods of writing that force you to fit your thoughts into a rigid format and thus hamper your ability to express them in a way that best suits the subject. Writing style most definitely ought to be customized for its subject and context. Some say to write simply. This can be good. You engage your reader. You use active voice. You limit adverbs. Y…

Whatever your style, the structure of your piece ought to be customized to its content

This is good advice, but for novice writers it may be quite difficult or impossible to follow. The distinction between novice and expert writers is important and tends to get overlooked in these kinds of discussions, as I wrote in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7012474 .

Most of us experience writing lessons through school, where we're frequently not by not-very-good teachers and where the lessons tend to focus on extreme novices. But what is good for an expert may not always be good for a novice and vice-versa, so some of the lessons we're taught don't apply across the entire range of writing expertise / skill.

Re: Five Paragraph Essays

#34

Post by raymondduke » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 7:35 PM UTC

As a copywriter, I know that the better you are at fine writing, the more of a disadvantage you are in.

When you write to sell, you want the focus to be on the product - not your smooth talking voice.

Imagine a salesperson using poetry to sell you something. Although it would be entertaining, it would not help sell the product.

Don't write to entertain. Don't write to make YOU sound better. Write for THEM.

The problem with academia is it is built around bolstering YOUR ego. In the real world, having a big ego is counterproductive to working your way up the ladder. It's like having a broken leg in a marathon.

Don't believe me? Just look at how much trouble people with degrees are having. They can't find jobs. They don't have social skills. They have big egos, but can't make money.

And yes, I have a degree. I have a piece of paper that I can tell people I have. My clients are only mildly interested in the fact that I have one.

Re: Five Paragraph Essays

#35

Post by ivansavz » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 7:36 PM UTC

I recently discovered the "speak, don't write" rule while finishing my thesis and I it has done wonders for me. I had written all the technical parts of the thesis but had writers' block writing the introduction. How could you possibly summarize 200pp of formulas and equations in a few paragraphs? I kept writing attempts-at-paragraphs then editing each sentence until the paragraph was a lifeless, unconnected jumble of ideas and facts.

At some point I was so tired that I went for a walk and recorder myself explaining the intro and, lo and behold, it came out good. After that I acted as my own secretary and transcribed it and I was done!

For those who want to try this, I recommend you have a little plan before yous start writing so you can have a high level structure in mind about what you want to say:

    point-form plan  --->  speak it ---> transcribe --> final edits

Re: Five Paragraph Essays

#36

Post by ameister14 » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 7:50 PM UTC

I think the author misunderstood the lesson his professor was teaching him. He was told to abandon the structure he knew in favor of content, but that doesn't mean that structure is inherently valueless or indeed that the 5 paragraph structure is without value.

The structure of writing is not really about ranks or levels. A Pulitzer prize winner can choose to write a 5 paragraph essay without lowering himself to a 'high school level' of writing. You don't level up in college, you learn a variety of structures and skills. This doesn't mean that the skills you developed in high school are lessened. It just means that you have more tools to choose from, and are probably better at deciding between them.

Re: Five Paragraph Essays

#37

Post by ivansavz » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 7:50 PM UTC

hyp0 wrote: post #32

I find speaking aloud does result in a better flowing essay. But I wonder which effects are due to the speaking; and which to how speaking reminds you that you are trying to communicate to someone, and give them something of value? Consider the problem-solving technique of explaining the problem to someone - which also works well when explaining it to a duck. Would writing a letter to a duck work as well as telling i…

I agree that keeping the audience in mind is an important aspect of writing, but for me the relative speed of speaking is the more important aspect.

When I write, I tend to think too much and follow too many of my associations so the writing process becomes and endless start-and-stop of new ideas with a "branching factor" of 4-5. I often have to backtrack when I get too off topic. Think wikipedia browsing binge....

When I speak, I don't have the time to have so associations so the thoughts become more linear and follow logically one from the other.

Interestingly, I find handwriting (like real pen and paper) can also be good: in this case the pace is slower than typing, but I have enough time to make good sentences because my mind has the time to process things in the background as I'm writing out the words. Think look-ahead optimization...

Re: Five Paragraph Essays

#38

Post by Double_Cast » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 7:55 PM UTC

  [1] Reification      vs Abstraction; 
  [2] E-prime          vs Evaluation; 
  [3] Active Voice     vs Passive Voice; 
  [4] Germanic         vs Latin; 
  [5] Specific Diction vs Concatenated Adverbs;

Here's a list of the writing ideas (in no particular order) which I've found most helpful. Eveything has its time and place. But as a heuristic, left-side items are better than right-side items. A few explanatory links off the top of my head:

[1] http://lesswrong.com/lw/k7/original_seeing/

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime

[3] http://www.towson.edu/ows/activepass.htm

[4] https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

[5] "Adverb are weak. They modify modifiers. Instead, use more specific verbs." - my English teacher

Re: Five Paragraph Essays

#39

Post by overgard » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 7:56 PM UTC

So here's something I just learned recently: be polarizing.

By that, I don't mean be controversial for controversies sake (that's cheap). I mean that good writing has a point, and if you have a strong point people will be polarized by it, and that's actually a good thing. The worst writing I read (especially from myself) is writing that tries to hedge so it doesn't offend people. People SHOULD be offended. That's why you wrote the damn thing. If everyone already agrees, then you're not saying something worthwhile.

Re: Five Paragraph Essays

#40

Post by brianzelip » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 8:02 PM UTC

> I then email the audio file to have it transcribed by a virtual assistant and Booyah!

Do you think he's using "virtual assistant" here as an application, or a human service? Can anyone recommend one or two examples of each? (Does a software version exist?)