Live data from Hacker News

Five Paragraph Essays

blog.42floors.com

21–30 of 74 posts

Re: Five Paragraph Essays

#21

Uh. There's the aphoristic style, the "5-paragraph" style, the dialogue, the trialogue, the research paper, etc. A paper should be as simple as necessary, but no simpler. Depending on your topic, you could have 20 paragraphs, 10 paragraphs. And if what you're writing is arguably good, length shouldn't matter. At some point in your paper you should say, "I'm doing a damn fine job here, and my professor should love to…

There's also the anecdotal/analogical style, the narrative style — of course you can use any voice you wish to sew multiple styles together.

You should use your topic as a basis for experimenting with different styles, not as a means to prove your mastery of the language.

Papers are not proofs.

Re: Five Paragraph Essays

#22
I like the idea of dictating while on a walk. I use Naturally Speaking to dictate in the office, but you have to be tied to the computer to do it. As any freelancer can tell you, getting out of the house really helps the ideas flow and from a different perspective too

Re: Five Paragraph Essays

#23
post #7

Writing is the hardest thing I've ever had to do. Once the length of what I need to write exceeds around a hundred words, it's almost as if my brain stops working. I'm graduating from college this summer and looking back on it, I'd go so far as to argue papers were harder than thermodynamics midterms. What I have going for me is that I'm a pretty good public speaker. The moment I picture myself behind a podium in fro…

What you need to understand is that much of writing in school is bullshit. And not actually very useful for building up your writing skills.

For me I'd say the most important influences towards improving my writing came from one particular course in high school (modern european history) where the homework was all short essays and paragraph-ish long answers to a bunch of questions/topics and heavy participation in usenet during my college years.

With papers it's too easy to fall into a pattern of satisficing, because the bar is set pretty low, even in college, and the exercises are mostly unrealistic. But when you have to spend time trying to communicate complicated subjects to real human beings or to make detailed arguments then you have to step up your skills substantially.

Re: Five Paragraph Essays

#24
The tip about speaking first may be a good one, but it shouldn't be portrayed as universal. I tend to express myself better through writing, and to be awkward when speaking. IMO the trick is to drop your inhibitions about writing crap so you can just get a draft down somehow.

Re: Five Paragraph Essays

#25

> To become a better writer you have to stop writing and start speaking. I loved it right up until that point. The problem with the 5 paragraph essay, is that it's a rule-of-thumb. It's a good guide, but isn't necessarily appropriate. People seem like they always want to prescribe 'the rule to follow to do x'. Their 'rule' ends up being a rule-of-thumb, and then smart people dissect its inadequacies. I think that's w…

What makes you say it's equally stupid? Why don't you think it's optimal? I've never tried it before, and I'm curious how it works.

Because it tries to prescribe a rule-of-thumb as a rule.

Re: Five Paragraph Essays

#26
Provocative! I write for a living, and I've got two teenage sons learning all the standard high-school writing rules. I tell them that the rules are like using glue or nails to make furniture.

It's possible to defy the rules and produce something awesome. But often you just need to produce something that's reliable, sturdy, useful and quick. Learn the rules first. Use them most of the time. Break them when you've got a rare, wonderful reason to do so.

Blogging is the most conversational form of writing out there. The best bloggers conjure up structures that are so subtle and sophisticated that everything seems totally free-form. Getting that right consistently is a gift. Switching into conversation mode 100% of the time and hoping for great results is like pressing together some notched pieces of wood and hoping for the best.

Re: Five Paragraph Essays

#27
post #10
post #7

Writing is the hardest thing I've ever had to do. Once the length of what I need to write exceeds around a hundred words, it's almost as if my brain stops working. I'm graduating from college this summer and looking back on it, I'd go so far as to argue papers were harder than thermodynamics midterms. What I have going for me is that I'm a pretty good public speaker. The moment I picture myself behind a podium in fro…

It sounds like you've got a solid form -- for the writing part, it's just annoying/tedious/takes time to start recording your thoughts as they go. Writing is a form of thinking, literally, and if you can train yourself to document your thoughts as you are saying or thinking them, it won't hurt as much, I promise! Your first draft should always be shit, and then you revise and rebuild, like you were already doing...

I have the same problem as the person you're responding to, and writing is not a form of thinking (for me, at least) - generating anything to put onto the page feels like an insurmountable task. I like the GP's suggestion of making a speech, I'm likewise much better at vocalizing than writing.

I'm pretty sure there is some underlying difference and it would be good to know what it is - I was diagnosed with dyslexia when I was 14, which never really felt like a satisfying answer, though I do have some dyslexic-ish symptoms (I tend to spell phonetically when I'm very tired and often type word-correct anagrams - like "never really left like a satisfying answer", above).

Re: Five Paragraph Essays

#28

Dictating the text is an extraordinary advice! I (still) didn't manage to build a decent blog, but I do write a lot. When I started to think about the text as if I were simply going through what I wanted to speak with someone, it was liberating. On the other hand, though, I do understand the need to use the five paragraph structure (or, here in Brazil, the "three sections structure"). I, just as you, was usually pret…

"three sections structure"

Intro, development and conclusion? Será?

Re: Five Paragraph Essays

#29
A nice post whose essential point is that you should eschew formulaic methods of writing that force you to fit your thoughts into a rigid format and thus hamper your ability to express them in a way that best suits the subject.

Writing style most definitely ought to be customized for its subject and context.

Some say to write simply. This can be good. You engage your reader. You use active voice. You limit adverbs. You keep sentences short. Nothing wrong at all with this. It works well for many purposes.

Personally, I like to vary the short, direct, and active approach with occasional long, flowing sentences that can add flow to your writing, that can mix polysyllabic words with plain ones, that can use the passive voice as freely as the active when it is appropriate for the task at hand, that can build a succession of thoughts one upon the other in ways that flow naturally for a reader, that can interpose an arresting pause or two to emphasize a particular point - for example, by using hyphens to isolate an illustrative example - and that can bring in parallel elements to help dramatize a point, whether as a matter of form, or of substance, or of any combination of the two.

Whatever your style, the structure of your piece ought to be customized to its content. If it is a simple subject, it can have a simple format (nothing inherently wrong with the 5-paragraph format if it is not used in a formulaic way). If it is complex, then it needs to develop its themes with whatever level of nuance and subtlety may be needed to say something intelligent about the subject.

You need to be yourself in how you express your thoughts. Ever read a standard old-fashioned press release. It almost always begins something like this: "Company X, the world's leading producer of xxx and other market-leading products . . ." Apparently, whoever writes these things has been taught to puff the company right up front to give the release maximum impact. For me, this sort of style has the opposite effect. I read the canned language and I immediately click off and think, "this piece is going to be of very limited value to me, if any." And, just as this is true of such press releases, it is true of any other artificial way that people express themselves in writing. The artificiality may give you a fill-in-the-blanks way of completing your writing task but it works against you with the reader. Readers want to be stimulated in their thinking and, by using custom forms of expression - whether it be by an apt metaphor, a vivid illustration, an engaging story, or whatever - you do them a tremendous service by making what you say interesting. For this purpose, you should put yourself in their shoes and think, "how would I want to have this explained to me to make it interesting."

But being yourself is more than just ranting about a subject. Good writing takes hard work and by that I mean far more than putting time into a particular piece. I mean instead that good writing is the result of a cumulative effort, often spread over a lifetime, by which you read widely about many things, learn how to think, write frequently to develop your skills, gain depth of language skills through significant formal study if you can, and do any of a number of other things that prepare you to meet your reader as a craftsman and not as a hack (used in its non-HN meaning, of course). Yes, this is very hard work. But you will see that it is well worth the effort. You have a lot to say about interesting things. Well, learn to say it well.

Other opinions may vary. This is mine. In general, it also seems to be that of the author of this piece, who put his thoughts well. It is a post worth reading. For anyone interested, I have put together a few additional thoughts on what makes for good legal writing (my particular vocation), which is set forth here: http://www.grellas.com/articles.html.

Re: Five Paragraph Essays

#30

> To become a better writer you have to stop writing and start speaking. I loved it right up until that point. The problem with the 5 paragraph essay, is that it's a rule-of-thumb. It's a good guide, but isn't necessarily appropriate. People seem like they always want to prescribe 'the rule to follow to do x'. Their 'rule' ends up being a rule-of-thumb, and then smart people dissect its inadequacies. I think that's w…

I definitely echo that comment, with an addition. The best writing, I find, is not actually written as someone would speak it. Academic writing in particular, but fiction and non-fiction as well.

I've written a few speeches that went across very well, and with those I didn't simply follow a person's speaking habits. I wrote in what is actually a very structured and thought out fashion. It's just not 5 paragraph format because it's not an essay for my teacher to grade.

Perhaps a better point would be 'To become a better BLOGGER you have to stop writing and start speaking.' Blogging is inherently informal, much like how I'm writing this comment now.

Post reply on HN