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We Need Viable Search Engine Competition

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Re: We Need Viable Search Engine Competition

#41
post #33

Perfectly valid expectation with near impossible odds of coming true. Google has gotten so rich, entrenched and popular that IMHO no competitor can dislodge it. I say this as a thoroughly-disappointed user who's tried nearly all the alternatives to Google in the various segments that it operates in. I've managed to stop using nearly all Google services except Android (running CM) and Search. As others have pointed ou…

"Google has gotten so rich, entrenched and popular that IMHO no competitor can dislodge it." Isn't this the definition of a monopoly? And if so, isn't that reason enough to consider search as a public good or a publicly regulated means of accessing information?

The key word there is "IMHO"

Judging from the various anti-trust cases that have been brought on against Google around the world it's clear that proving that is nearly impossible too. More so because Google operates in a sector (Internet software) that is theoretically open to infinite competition and zero switching costs.

Re: We Need Viable Search Engine Competition

#42
I don't think anything can compete with Google when it comes to search in English. I almost feel like Google can read my mind. With the adequate query you can find anything you've ever read on the internet if it's still online. Yesterday night I wanted to re-read a blog post about a guy that made a few bucks with QNX, but I didn't remember much I tried a few queries and I got the expected blog post with this:

https://www.google.com/search?q=netherlands+blog+qnx+a+few+b...

http://jacquesmattheij.com/how-to-make-a-quick-buck

I just tried the same query with DDG and Bing and they don't even come close to giving me the link I want.

Re: We Need Viable Search Engine Competition

#43
post #5

Part of the problem is that Google's PageRank algorithm is patented and the patent won't expire until 2017. Google insists that its current search mix is based on a lot more than just PageRank, but it seems that PageRank probably contributes the foundation of their business. I don't see a way of competing with Google's results unless we are allowed to use something like PageRank, which we can't do unless we pay royal…

The PageRank patent is owned by Stanford; anyone can buy a license. And BTW, it isn't necessary or even that useful these days to compute it.

Re: We Need Viable Search Engine Competition

#44
Is PageRank really the indomitable tech of our generation? Nobody can do better algorithmically, or integrate some kind of crowd sourced feedback, or measure browsing time and habits, or simply hand tune some of the most competitive key phrases? I’m sure I’m oversimplifying, but I wonder if we haven’t all been hypnotised by the complexity, much of which is marketing hype...

Actually, the tech is extremely complex, and PageRank is only a tiny part of that. Try building a search engine sometime. To hackers inspired by this article: here be dragons.

DuckDuckGo took the only sane approach and aggregated results from existing search engine apis, then gradually mixed in some secret sauce. Even then, is DDG viable competition for Google? Will it ever be?

All the same, I join you in wishing for some Innovators Dilemma-style disruption here. A "toy" service comes along one day that's a substitute for Google search, but only within a tiny niche. Google doesn't take it seriously enough until it's too late...and we have a real ballgame on our hands again.

Thought experiment: what could that disruptive niche be?

Re: We Need Viable Search Engine Competition

#45
post #15

I would say that Bing already is a viable alternative. Having used it for several months now, there aren't too many queries that it doesn't handle well, and usually when I check Google's results for those queries, they are equally bad.

So instead of an entrenched monopolist, I’m supposed to choose… Microsoft?

That just feels wrong.

Re: We Need Viable Search Engine Competition

#46
post #33

Perfectly valid expectation with near impossible odds of coming true. Google has gotten so rich, entrenched and popular that IMHO no competitor can dislodge it. I say this as a thoroughly-disappointed user who's tried nearly all the alternatives to Google in the various segments that it operates in. I've managed to stop using nearly all Google services except Android (running CM) and Search. As others have pointed ou…

"Google has gotten so rich, entrenched and popular that IMHO no competitor can dislodge it." Isn't this the definition of a monopoly? And if so, isn't that reason enough to consider search as a public good or a publicly regulated means of accessing information?

Given the current western governments' stance on privacy and freedom of speech / access to information, this sounds like dystopian proposition.

Re: We Need Viable Search Engine Competition

#47
This is one of PG's frighteningly ambitious problems and I believe it's an important (and really hard) problem. I think the answer is to focus on an important niche and grow from there. DDG has done a good job by focusing on privacy; they're currently at nearly 4m queries per day.

I'm starting by building the search engine I want to use while writing code, which does parallel searches of different parts of the web dynamically based on the query.

I have an initial (ugly and very limited) prototype here: http://gigglebang.com/

I'm looking for co-founders. If this is an interesting problem to you, email me: gb@dewdrops.net

Re: We Need Viable Search Engine Competition

#48

The complaint seems to boil down to how Google deals with spammers. The question is, how is competition going to make it better? If we instead had five search engines that each had 20% market share, would people stop trying to game them? Would false positives in efforts to thwart spammers be eliminated? How? The problem isn't even one that responds to market forces -- the "victims" (sites that should rank highly in o…

You falsely assume a new search engine can only be "as good as Google". Google's search has become highly commercialized over the years, it used to be about finding the "best" answer to your search query (the "original" PageRank), but it has increasingly become the "best consumerist" answer to your query (where to buy something). This make it more susceptible to spammers, as their basic incentives are similar. New, different, search engines might try another approach, perhaps less personalized, less commercialized, and less mass-media oriented, and be less of a "petri dish" for spammers.

Re: We Need Viable Search Engine Competition

#49

My biggest concern with Google is the phenomenal amount of data they track and record about users. They have no self-restraint when it comes to tracking the online behaviour of users. Now they can track across devices (phone, desktop, tablet) giving them unprecedented knowledge of your online activity. Companies are collecting more data about online behaviour than ever before. And no-one has the same online reach as…

If I were Larry Page, I would put homomorphic encryption research at a much higher priority than quantum computers, or even researching robots (unless they intend to make most of their money from robots within a few short years, and not rely as much on search money, but that seems pretty unlikely in the short term).

If they plan on continuing to make money from tracking users, then they'd better figure out a way to do it very securely and without invading user privacy, otherwise they're going to feel an increasingly bigger pain in terms of public perception of Google over this, which could lead to them losing money in the long term, too.

I would also forget about tracking "everything possible" until then, and encrypt end-to-end stuff like chatting and video-calls (maybe they can do this one less costly through P2P or a hybrid system). I very much doubt they see a ton of money as a return from tracking and data mining people's chats online. And the downside is quite huge, because those online chats can be abused by the governments. So why not secure them properly? A little cost to them, huge privacy benefit to their users.

The goal should be to only track public, and not private information (at least in the short term, and then they should use homomorphic encryption for public information, too, as that will become increasingly more revealing, too, in the future).

I would also pay a lot of attention to what the Dark Mail Alliance is doing with e-mail encryption, and I would at the very least implement their protocol as an option for people who want to talk securely with others, from inside Gmail. They don't necessarily have to make all of Gmail encrypted by default, although that would obviously be very nice, but probably not very practical until they figure out homomorphic encryption.

There are also other things they could do to make e-mails a little more secure against abusive governments. In the US, ECPA allows the government to take the e-mail after 180 days without a warrant. So how about you ask people to give a password to G-mail, that's locally stored, and can automatically encrypt emails older than 179 days. If you need to access your own 6+ months old e-mails, then you're just asked to insert your password to access them. I don't see this as a huge issue for convenience, since the vast majority of 6+ months old e-mail is never accessed again by most people anyway.

The memories of a privacy-focused Google are certainly getting blurry, but I seem to remember there was a time when Google really cared about user privacy, and didn't have the same mentality as NSA for "collecting it all", storing it forever, and using it forever with data-mining.

Google has a lot of very smart people working for them. I'm sure they can come up with many more and much better solutions than even I proposed here. The problem is they have to want it. If it doesn't come as an objective from the top, then it's not going to happen.

From Wired, last year:

> Lloyd made his pitch, proposing a quantum version of Google’s search engine whereby users could make queries and receive results without Google knowing which questions were asked. The men were intrigued. But after conferring with their business manager the next day, Brin and Page informed Lloyd that his scheme went against their business plan. “They want to know everything about everybody who uses their products and services,” he joked.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/10/computers-big-data...

Google needs to lose that attitude. Adapt or die, Google. And by adapt, I mean having their business incentives once again aligned with those of their users, or it's not going to end well for them.

Re: We Need Viable Search Engine Competition

#50

The complaint seems to boil down to how Google deals with spammers. The question is, how is competition going to make it better? If we instead had five search engines that each had 20% market share, would people stop trying to game them? Would false positives in efforts to thwart spammers be eliminated? How? The problem isn't even one that responds to market forces -- the "victims" (sites that should rank highly in o…

Most of his complaints are reasonable (some aren't), what's happening is that Google is not evil enough for them not turning into actual damage. But if you distance yourself from the current context, you'll be able to see how the means Google use to deal with spammers are dangerous, and we are betting the Internet on Google not being evil (or somebody replacing them fast after they do become). Things would be better if we had 5 search engines with 20% market share.

But then, I completely agree that just complaining about the issue is useless. Anybody that (thinks that he) can build a competitor for Google will try it or not based on his odds of success, tolerance to risk, etc, not because somebody is complaining.

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