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Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

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Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#41
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Women need all the help that they can get because men run everything and often don't really think of women as completely human. Women need help because they are constantly under attack." Not sure if this is troll bait, but... are you serious? Do you have anything at all to back this up?

1. Men run everything. 2. Men often don't think of women as human. 3. Women are under attack by men. I don't think these points are controversial. 1. Women are 50% of the workforce, but 4.5% of fortune 1000 CEO positions. 2. Women didn't get the right to vote in America until 50 years after black people, who were officially only partially human. 3. Is a characterization.

keep in mind the common man hasnt been able to vote much longer than that either, before that it was just the aristocracy in power.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#42
In 2010-11, there were more female (55%) than male fulltime undergraduates (45%) enrolled at university – a trend which shows no sign of shrinking

http://www.theguardian.com/education/datablog/2013/jan/29/ho...

This sort of thing is happening in most western societies, majority of university students are women, but what we are most concerned about is which degrees they are choosing.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#43
post #6

It seems doubtful that the answer to social inequalities is to make special privileges for each group to match the special privileges already enjoyed by others, as opposed to working more towards an ideal of equal treatment for everyone. I kind of cringe every time I see some study or argument saying something to the effect of, "Women are, in fact, better suited for this type of work than men are." The healthy thing…

> It seems doubtful that the answer to social inequalities is to make special privileges for each group to match the special privileges already enjoyed by others, as opposed to working more towards an ideal of equal treatment for everyone. If two people are running in a race, and one of them has been running the past 4 miles with a 50-pound weight on their back, taking the weight off isn't going to make the race fair…

The mentality of the world as a competition between different groups of people, where either men win and women lose, or men lose and women win, doesn't seem particularly helpful either. A race implies winners and losers, so I think this is a bad analogy. An idea of "let's treat men worse for a while as revenge for years of male-dominated history" isn't very sophisticated, no particular offense intended. Also, giving special privileges to all the known groups will just disenfranchise the people not associated with any particular groups (in this case, one might consider trans people). Human equality (or even including non-human-persons equality) would seem a better ideal than just male-female equality.

If we're actually intelligent creatures, let's try and fix the underlying problems instead of just pushing them around for someone else to suffer from.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#44
post #6

It seems doubtful that the answer to social inequalities is to make special privileges for each group to match the special privileges already enjoyed by others, as opposed to working more towards an ideal of equal treatment for everyone. I kind of cringe every time I see some study or argument saying something to the effect of, "Women are, in fact, better suited for this type of work than men are." The healthy thing…

> It seems doubtful that the answer to social inequalities is to make special privileges for each group to match the special privileges already enjoyed by others, as opposed to working more towards an ideal of equal treatment for everyone. If two people are running in a race, and one of them has been running the past 4 miles with a 50-pound weight on their back, taking the weight off isn't going to make the race fair…

No you don't, doing so only breeds more animosity. There's a reason why men get touchy over female hires and promotions that are framed in the context of diversity and women's rights. Hiring or promoting someone primarily for being female, especially if they aren't the best candidate, is stupid.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Men run everything. 2. Men often don't think of women as human. 3. Women are under attack by men. I don't think these points are controversial. 1. Women are 50% of the workforce, but 4.5% of fortune 1000 CEO positions. 2. Women didn't get the right to vote in America until 50 years after black people, who were officially only partially human. 3. Is a characterization.

keep in mind the common man hasnt been able to vote much longer than that either, before that it was just the aristocracy in power.

Much longer than since 1920? That's just not true.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#46
post #6

It seems doubtful that the answer to social inequalities is to make special privileges for each group to match the special privileges already enjoyed by others, as opposed to working more towards an ideal of equal treatment for everyone. I kind of cringe every time I see some study or argument saying something to the effect of, "Women are, in fact, better suited for this type of work than men are." The healthy thing…

> It seems doubtful that the answer to social inequalities is to make special privileges for each group to match the special privileges already enjoyed by others, as opposed to working more towards an ideal of equal treatment for everyone. If two people are running in a race, and one of them has been running the past 4 miles with a 50-pound weight on their back, taking the weight off isn't going to make the race fair…

Whoever downvoted this, I suggest they look into the criticism of "colorblindness" in regards to racism, and consider if an analogy can be made here as well.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#47
post #9
post #4

If this is true, why are only 20% of Computer Science grads women? And the ratio has been falling since 2001.

You're assuming that given free choice, more women would choose computer science. But there are lots of other higher status degrees to choose, so I wouldn't take that as a given.

Personally, I still think this is the most parsimonious solution to the question. Its only flaw is that it doesn't give anybody any reason to self-flagellate, or at least not much of one.

People keep trying to have this discussion in the context of the 1950s, but we're in 2014, where women are, among other things, the majority of college graduates (and increasing). It is a obvious fact that in the past 20-30 years, every discipline has made a huge push to attract more women, with great success. The real problem today is that computer science/programming needs to attract women in a world of incredibly stiff competition.

Why is enrollment declining? Is it that unreasonable to suspect that the answer is "because computer science is being outcompeted by the dozens upon dozens of other disciplines making women better offers"?

I deliberately phrase this as "computer science" and not "computer scientists" because I'm unconvinced the problem is in the people. "But sometimes, there are misogynists in the computer world"... how is that unique? Every field had that problem. Today, computer scientists have been damn near actively begging for women, to the point that the solicitousness itself is becoming offensive, as the author points out. There gets to be a point where advocacy turns into trying to tell women what to do.

Unless both genders are precisely equally drawn to every single discipline, an idea which I think is itself rather offensively insensitive ("feminism" shouldn't be defined as "women are just funny-looking men" but my goodness is that a popular version if you really look at what people believe), there's going to be unbalanced disciplines.

This goes against some of the doctrines, and so I think people tend to put this argument when I make in the wrong bucket, but personally I think the question of whether we're trying to tell women what to like and how to like it is itself a feminist question. "So we should just stop trying because it's hopeless, huh?" No, I don't think that. Roll the carpet out, with all due honesty and openness, sure... but if nobody chooses to walk on it, that may very well simply be their decision (in aggregate). We have no right to run up to them and tell them they are wrong.

Might I also add that by sp332's own statistic, that the ratio has been falling since 2001, the idea that the field has been getting more misogynistic in the past 12 years is just patently absurd, and that is itself evidence that what's happening here isn't about the people.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#48

In 2010-11, there were more female (55%) than male fulltime undergraduates (45%) enrolled at university – a trend which shows no sign of shrinking http://www.theguardian.com/education/datablog/2013/jan/29/ho... This sort of thing is happening in most western societies, majority of university students are women, but what we are most concerned about is which degrees they are choosing.

And by far the majority of PHDs and professors are men. Even in women dominated fields the the professorships are dominated by men.

What exactly is your point?

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#50

The goal of women oriented initiatives isn't to tell women they aren't as capable. The author may be perfectly capable and she may be treated on her merit alone, but in aggregate women are not treated like that. From http://www.oecd.org/inclusive-growth/Closing%20the%20Gender%... "They reveal considerable gender differences among the self-employed, particularly those who are also employers. Figure 22.1 shows that acr…

Women who own businesses are on average higher educated than there male counterparts yet they earn significantly lower salaries.

I remember reading this I wish I had the link but it showed female business owners tended to take more time off than male counterparts and had a nicer work/life balance over money/growth/profit.

Are you suggesting that consumers are buying/consuming products/services from female run businesses?

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