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Losing Aaron: Bob Swartz on MIT's role in his son's death

bostonmagazine.com

191–200 of 211 posts

Re: Losing Aaron: Bob Swartz on MIT's role in his son's death

#191
post #94
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said upfront that this is not a straight up comparison. The main point for me is that I walk past the memorial for the MIT police officer killed in duty about once per week. One of these events had a tremendous impact on MIT and the surrounding community, the other had a negligible one. Regardless, have a re-read of the article you linked to. Jennifer Granick writes: > He could plead guilty to all 13 felony charges…

> On top of that, Aaron "would have had to swear under oath that he committed a crime, something he did not actually believe". Many people, almost by definition, do not believe that their own criminal acts were actually a "crime". Rationalization is a well-known human psychological phenomenon. Whatever else Aaron thought about his idealistic mission, being on the MIT subnet without permission was wrong (both morally…

> Many people, almost by definition, do not believe that their own criminal acts were actually a "crime". Rationalization is a well-known human psychological phenomenon.

It is problematic when you accept people's sworn testimony when it is against their true belief. Usually that is what is called a lie and sometimes a form of slavery. Disagreeing with clearly stated laws is one thing, but signing in agreement on what you totally disagree with and only because you were compelled is suppression of expression. I'm NOT trying to convert Aaron's position to one of free speech, but there is a line when you decide that someone has broken the law whether they agree to it or not and making them against their beliefs sign on a paper that becomes public record stating that they knowingly broke the law. The case here is when a law's validity is being challenged, this signed piece of paper removes any doubts about wrong doing and seals the fate of the signer. The law is validated by invalidating the counterargument through coercion.

> Whatever else Aaron thought about his idealistic mission, being on the MIT subnet without permission was wrong (both morally and legally), as was entering into the MIT server farm to gain that access.

But this wasn't even something that Aaron naïvely didn't recognize... he knew this was wrong to do as he had the same level of JSTOR access at his own campus at Harvard. But he didn't leech JSTOR from his own campus, he traveled across the city to surreptitiously do it from MIT. He even once covered his face with his bicycle helmet when he noticed a security camera so let's know act like "I didn't commit a crime" was his big hang-up. He did know, even if he disagreed personally with the law itself.

This I totally agree with and even if he disagreed personally with the law itself he did what he did and it was at least in my opinion somehow not right and obviously illegal.

> Well for starters you don't need to prove your innocence, you need only demonstrate that the government was unable to prove your guilt. But either way Dr. Granick covered this point already, and her treatment was comprehensive.

The problem with this argument is that his life was already nuked. The prosecution and MIT were in cahoots. If you read the article carefully you can see that Aaron's lawyers were upset that the prosecution was getting documents from MIT without warrants and hence violating Aaron's 4th amendment rights.

Tensions at MIT heightened in October after Aaron’s lawyers filed a motion alleging the university was “acting in concert” with the prosecution, violating federal law and Aaron’s Fourth Amendment rights protecting him from unreasonable search and seizure. The motion sought to suppress the indictment and all information gathered during the investigation. MIT was afraid its employees might have to defend themselves on the stand, which Abelson concluded served to further align the university’s interests with the prosecution.

Re: Losing Aaron: Bob Swartz on MIT's role in his son's death

#192
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but you clearly don't know what the culture at MIT is like. People at MIT break into places like network closets all the time , including picking the locks (a popular hobby). It's not officially encouraged, but it's endemic, and the administration generally doesn't mind that much. Accessing places you're not supposed to be in and doing neat hacks is a big part of the culture. Lots of people "get kicked off…

One of the interesting details in this article that I had not previously seen was that JSTOR had blocked MIT's access owing to repeated bulk downloads, which led to an investigation by MIT police. So this presumably went a bit beyond routine high jinks, and it presumably at least inconvenienced other users. The fact is that — much as we may sympathize with him — Aaron killed himself .

I totally agree he killed himself just like every suicide victim. The question is why does a person commit suicide? Boredom? Adventure? To get laid?

Your comment is the stupidest I've read in a long long time.

Down voted.

Re: Losing Aaron: Bob Swartz on MIT's role in his son's death

#193
post #171
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but you clearly don't know what the culture at MIT is like. People at MIT break into places like network closets all the time , including picking the locks (a popular hobby). It's not officially encouraged, but it's endemic, and the administration generally doesn't mind that much. Accessing places you're not supposed to be in and doing neat hacks is a big part of the culture. Lots of people "get kicked off…

> People at MIT But Aaron was at Harvard. He was not an MIT student or part of their faculty. At what point does MIT get to take charge of their own network against third parties?

It is so frustrating that people don't try to look up what they should know before commenting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacks_at_the_Massachusetts_Inst...

Re: Losing Aaron: Bob Swartz on MIT's role in his son's death

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, poor MIT, all they did was actively help the guy who wanted Aaron thrown in prison for three and half decades* while pretending to be neutral. Any of us might have done the same, right? Totally innocent! Like "a rape victim," to use Heymann's own words. If you punch a stranger in the face, you probably don't expect him to fall, crack his head on the corner of a table, and die; but you don't get to claim you're bl…

It was Aaron's choice to kill himself. He wasn't a victim of anything but his own mind.

Did you see people throwing themselves out of the World Trade Center not wanting to be burnt alive? Was it their choice to kill themselves? Were they victims of their own minds? Think about your stupid comment for a while.

Re: Losing Aaron: Bob Swartz on MIT's role in his son's death

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a security issue because some guy kept on breaking into their network and had escalated to physical intrusion to achieve his goals. They didn't know the guy was Aaron Swartz and that they ought to have been privileged to have him on their network, invited or not.

I am taking the second sentence as sarcasm.

Why are you taking it as sarcasm? MIT didn't know it was him until they installed a camera and guest logins are the norm and apparently/reportedly have high privileges.

Re: Losing Aaron: Bob Swartz on MIT's role in his son's death

#196
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I don't think that and I didn't said that. Cite? Just found this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide . From the graphic shown on the page, not all suicide are caused by mental illness. That was my main point. I have some doubts about the mental illness importance shown in this graph. Anyway, the mental illness could be the source of pain leading to the rational decision to end it by suicide.

I don't think 40-50% qualifies as a "small fraction." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Suicidecases.png

I must admit I was wrong on this assumption.

Re: Losing Aaron: Bob Swartz on MIT's role in his son's death

#197
post #156
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you see a drowning man and do nothing you are guilty of inaction. In this case they knew what was happening and before issuing an informal warning went for the nuclear option.

If you see a drowning man and do nothing you are guilty of inaction. Yes. But if you take a man and throw him in the water with chains around his arms and legs so that he drowns, you are guilty of something worse. I'm not saying MIT is blameless; I'm saying that there are degrees of blame, and the prosecutors deserve more than MIT does, because MIT failed to help but the prosecutors actively sought to harm. In this c…

The article implies that MIT knew that students were downloading JSTOR files illegally.

Re: Losing Aaron: Bob Swartz on MIT's role in his son's death

#198
post #191
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On top of that, Aaron "would have had to swear under oath that he committed a crime, something he did not actually believe". Many people, almost by definition, do not believe that their own criminal acts were actually a "crime". Rationalization is a well-known human psychological phenomenon. Whatever else Aaron thought about his idealistic mission, being on the MIT subnet without permission was wrong (both morally…

> Many people, almost by definition, do not believe that their own criminal acts were actually a "crime". Rationalization is a well-known human psychological phenomenon. It is problematic when you accept people's sworn testimony when it is against their true belief. Usually that is what is called a lie and sometimes a form of slavery. Disagreeing with clearly stated laws is one thing, but signing in agreement on what…

Two points:

1) You can disagree with a law yet concede that you broke it. I might disagree with the concept of copyright, but I can recognize and admit when my actions, fit the definition of infringement.

2) It was not a violation of Aaron's 4th amendment rights for MIT to hand over documents without a warrant. You cannot invoke 4th amendment protection over someone else's property, only that person can. And that person is free to cooperate without a warrant.

Re: Losing Aaron: Bob Swartz on MIT's role in his son's death

#199
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many people, almost by definition, do not believe that their own criminal acts were actually a "crime". Rationalization is a well-known human psychological phenomenon. It is problematic when you accept people's sworn testimony when it is against their true belief. Usually that is what is called a lie and sometimes a form of slavery. Disagreeing with clearly stated laws is one thing, but signing in agreement on what…

Two points: 1) You can disagree with a law yet concede that you broke it. I might disagree with the concept of copyright, but I can recognize and admit when my actions, fit the definition of infringement. 2) It was not a violation of Aaron's 4th amendment rights for MIT to hand over documents without a warrant. You cannot invoke 4th amendment protection over someone else's property, only that person can. And that per…

In your first point you skip that the reason why Aaron was able to get into the system was that MIT was a breeding place for the hack culture and didn't clamp down on security like keeping the door of the switches closet open and allowing highly privileged access to its network. If it was locked or entry was prohibited then it would have been outright against set rules. It wasn't. This means according to MIT's followed traditions he did what everyone else was capable of doing and it was not against the law because heavy use of the network and access to the switches room was allowed.

As for your second point it doesn't hold. The kerfuffle around the NSA is partly because it was collecting data from the ISPs without a warrant and 4th amendment rights are being violated. In this case MIT is in the same position as the ISPs while not having immunity over their actions like ISPs did.

Re: Losing Aaron: Bob Swartz on MIT's role in his son's death

#200
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He didn't say everyone was responsible. Didn't say it directly, but follow the logic. If the prosecutors are now responsible for only proferring charges on suspects who won't kill themselves then it obviously follows that we need to ensure that no one appoints prosecutors who would do this (it's life and death after all!). So now the person appointing the prosecutor potentially has blood on their hands. Likewise fo…

Responsibility is not a binary property where any given individual is either responsible or not. There are varying degrees of responsibility. Obviously each step in your absurd slippery slope argument corresponds to a drastic decrease in the degree of responsibility. You aren't following the logic, you're evading logic entirely.

And yet people here are holding MIT and the prosecution team more responsible than Aaron himself for Aaron's own actions. I'll definitely agree with you that responsibility is not binary but I won't agree that the slippery slope argument isn't exactly what many of the HN'ers are on right now.
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