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Why I no longer contribute to Stack Overflow

michael.richter.name

191–200 of 243 posts

Re: Why I no longer contribute to Stack Overflow

#191

StackOverflow is a machine designed to do one thing: make it so that, for any given programming question, you will get a search engine hit on their site and find a good answer quickly. And see some ads. That's really it. Everything it does is geared toward that, and it does it quite well. I have lots of SO points. A lot of them have come from answering common, basic questions. If you think points exist to prove merit…

Still, SO has managed to build up a mostly competent community that provides relevant answers to most questions;

if SO manages to loose this community then signal to noise ratio will further increase, the site will go down the drain and new competitors will appear.

Are people really that motivated by points and badges? I think these are similar to toy money/monopoly money. if a person does not like the process of investigating a problem then this will not be a sufficient motive for participation; if its not fun then nothing will help here. Career incentive? I doubt that, for a real job they will look at other things.

Still SO has a dilemma, like wikipedia it is a huge amount of text and it needs some meta moderation, and then some meta meta moderation too; so monopoly money is probably supposed to move a person up along this hierarchy. The problem is that a hierarchy of moderators will eventually piss off at least some competent contributors, if not all of them; this problem is common to most sites: slashdot, wikipedia, SO, HN - over time they all run into this problem.

Its like in real politics; nation states need bureaucrats, but these can also turn into a mortal danger to the state

Re: Why I no longer contribute to Stack Overflow

#192
If you're going for points (and that's the entire raison d'être for gamification!)

That's the faulty premise. Or rather: it strikes at the weakness of gamification.

Yes, there is a very strong tendency for reward and effort to be grossly mismatched in user-ranked and filtered sites. Guess what: there's a copious amount of similar mismatch in real life. Jobs which are painfully difficult offer little reward, other times a casually tossed off effort may gain endless plaudits.

On HN, I think my top-voted comment remains a sarcastically flip jibe at PHP (a couple of submissions have out-scored it). On reddit, something of a throwaway about terminals vs. glass TTYs (at least it's technical). On the other hand, I scored my first reddit gold, which is to say, someone was sufficiently moved by what I'd written to actually pay something, for a longer and more detailed post, but one which my research of the topic made pretty easy to write.

But that's not why I participate.

My principle objective is to learn, explore, examine, have my own ideas challenged, and generally expand my capabilities and understanding. And used correctly, HN, reddit, and StackExchange all accomplish this pretty well.

The rating systems are there less for the person being rated and more for the benefit of others -- they're a first-level indication of how well trusted and respected someone is ... or how long and obsessively they've been using the service.

A recent HN post (also appearing on reddit) was "We Have to Talk About TED". I wrote my own riff on that: "We Have to Talk About 'We Have to Talk About TED'" (http://redd.it/1te3hz) (and yes, as the woman in the back says, its TEDtles all the way down ...).

The key problem:

There's a fundamental problem with democratic voting processes and voting systems (such as reddit's own post and moderation processes[2] -- which are, in their defense, better than most) in assessing who's qualified to make a judgement -- and then, of course, in determining who's qualified to assess who's qualified.

There's been a strong focus in the online world for the past decade or more over user-moderated discussion. Slashdot was arguably one of the first such sites, many others have come along, most have gone. I think a fundamental misunderstanding is that the most democratic moderation systems are the best. I don't believe this is the case. Rather, any distributed moderation system shares the load of content filtering. Which is a good thing. But distributing that load to those unable to draw meaningful distinctions between "good" and "entertaining" is not useful.

This is most crucial where you're not measuring, say, marketplace potential (where popularity is in fact by and large the metric you're looking for) as opposed to, say, technical correctness. In which tests of suitability are more significant.

And that's the point of StackExchange: it's not a platform with the goal of scoring people the most points, it's a platform on which if you go there with a question, you'll find a good, and hopefully the best, applicable answer. And to that end, I've actually found the site extremely useful.

So: HN, StackExchange, reddit, Facebook, Google+, and other similar sites tend to fall down a bit of a rathole. Clay Shirky's noted that the problem isn't information overload, it's filter failure, but there are also two modes of filter failure: one is filters which are overwhelmed in the classification task and can't keep up. But another is filters which select the wrong stuff.

Which isn't a particularly easy problem to solve. StackExchange actually takes a decent cut at it (as do other services such as Yahoo Answers, though with varying degrees of success) by having the submitter select the best answer. Within the ranking system, this might carry some benefits, and in particular, submitting a lot of wrong, or simply unselected answers, might carry a penalty. Another way to switch up the voting system would be to assign more points for answers to harder, less-answered, or unanswered questions. Or to provide a means of judging between solutions: what's faster, simpler, more comprehensive, more robust, etc.

Which gets down to determining what quality and fitness are. In which case I'd recommend taking another look at Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Though you need not agree entirely with what he has to say.

Re: Why I no longer contribute to Stack Overflow

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you call out the author, note that the primary motivator StackOverflow offers to users are those very internet points you decry: You can't blame someone for playing to the very mechanics of the site. Would StackOverflow be popular if it didn't have leader boards and reputation points and arrays of expertise-claiming badges? Would people spend their time working on other people's problems if it didn't earn them…

>> "the primary motivator StackOverflow offers to users are those very internet points" I disagree. The reason I answer questions on SO is because of the incredible help I get from it form my own questions and those already answered. I think a lot of people contribute as a way of giving back and internet points don't encourage them in anyway. Sure there are people who internet points are important to but I would gues…

Some data points. Took a poll around our office (it was kind of thin because of the holiday) and of the 4 devs that responded and said they use SO, all 4 said they don't actually care about or pay attention to the points, they just use it as a source of information.

Re: Why I no longer contribute to Stack Overflow

#194
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many good questions do you see that are "CLOSED AS NOT A REAL QUESTION"? The site is fine for what it is, but there's definitely a market for building a better StackOverFlow.

StackOverflow seems to have devolved into a bunch of shit questions. Anything too technical doesn't get answered, since the real veterans have left, and anything not technical enough (like an approach to a problem) gets closed. I loved SO in the beginning. Now it's a cesspool.

There are a few holdouts in certain areas. E.G. there's a pretty active and good Haskell community on SO currently.

Re: Why I no longer contribute to Stack Overflow

#195
post #80

Any idea where they went wrong? Any suggested alternative? Some trivial Java question gets one more points than a brilliant solution for some obscure problem - okay. Isn't that the nature of all things? Is this StackOverflow's fault? He recommends: "Engage with other users of the tools you use in the form of user groups, mailing lists, web forums, etc." Don't "mailing lists, web forums" suffer from the same bias? Eve…

Initially, it was Joel's promise:

forums suffer from giving you lots of bragging and (may be) a half-bottomed solution lost somewhere deep there -- and here it is all on the same page, and cleaned up and nicefied in pursuit for points.

Sadly, the nicefiers turned onto questions' quality at some moment (which is my main objection), and also the "we don't like fun" mechanistic attitude creeped in (probably due to the mods turning into "human robots" more and more).

btw, during the first year or so, there was a site called "Crap Overflow" -- whose author (whoever he was -- are you reading this, pal??) was a visioner, as it appears now :)

Re: Why I no longer contribute to Stack Overflow

#196
"Over one third of my reputation was "earned" from me doing absolutely nothing for over two years. Indeed I went from the top 4% of contributors at my time of departure to the top 3%, despite, you know, me not doing anything."

I don't see the problem here. He's not getting points for doing nothing. He's getting points for something he did in the past. Sort of like royalties.

Re: Why I no longer contribute to Stack Overflow

#197

I appreciate the author's opinions overall, so this is a nitpick of just one of his core arguments. I think he is inverting the value of certain kinds of questions. To me, Stack Overflow is valuable primarily for the simple answers to simple questions, and secondarily for the complex answers to hard questions. As a software developer well into my second decade of professional experience, I maintain a small number of…

Michael Richter mistakenly assumes that "hard work == productivity". "Tough to solve C++ problems" are not in as high demand as relatively easy to answer Java questions. Stack Overflow scoring system captures that.

demand != productivity

Questions that google can answer are low-productivity, possibly anti-productive if they cause people to hit stackoverflow instead of language docs. Hard questions can completely save the day of a few people, and teach even more.

Re: Why I no longer contribute to Stack Overflow

#198
You guys collectively here seem to have nailed it on the points v useful information issue. However, I do like his analysis of the community problems in collaborative sites like SO and Wikipedia as becoming run by an anal-twerp cabal. This is a real social information problem and deserves more thought .thank you to OP for that analysis.

Re: Why I no longer contribute to Stack Overflow

#199

I appreciate the author's opinions overall, so this is a nitpick of just one of his core arguments. I think he is inverting the value of certain kinds of questions. To me, Stack Overflow is valuable primarily for the simple answers to simple questions, and secondarily for the complex answers to hard questions. As a software developer well into my second decade of professional experience, I maintain a small number of…

Just to add to that: it seems like stack overflow/exchange is really helpful when people can verify for themselves whether an answer is correct or not. Did the shell script modify the right files, does this SQL query return the right results, etc. It breaks down where beginners can't tell which of the answers is correct, which is usually the big conceptual stuff.

Re: Why I no longer contribute to Stack Overflow

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't the original brief of SO mostly "be a better expertsexchange.com"? Which was... a site designed to be at the top of a search engine result for a programming question, serve you ads, and aggressively try to get you to become a paid member to see results. Everyone hated expertsexchange. Now people are starting to hate SO, for very different reasons. At last! They've become the new expertsexchange in every way.

I am seeing that url as "expert sex change." That said, the word therapist also can be read in multiple ways.

That's exactly why they changed their domain name to experts-exchange.com at some point [1]. I think many people still call it that out of contempt for their SEO and paywall antics.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experts-Exchange 4th paragraph.

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