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We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

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271–275 of 275 posts

Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do I get equal access to the existing infrastructure (presumably paid for by the existing monopoly)? No, the existing company retains ownership of the infrastructure they paid for and the ability to charge anyone whatever the heck they want for using it. Also, they retain all rights granted in private contracts (not involving government at the federal, state, or municipal level). > Second, who am i? A startup [with…

I was in the middle of writing a long-winded reply, but I'd rather just agree to disagree on philosophy and economics. I'm also not the right person to come up with the winning business plan to your scenario (little knowledge of the ISP market other than as a consumer). And ultimately I probably agree with you about how to deal with the situation right now , in that we shouldn't lose net neutrality when the ISPs are…

> I'd rather just agree to disagree on philosophy and economics.

I'm sure you would. I'm armed with a long list of time-honored principles that allow a big player to anti-competitively grind a small player into the ground long before any real competition can take place.

You are armed with your faith in the market.

> Where we disagree is whether or not it is possible to create the conditions for a truly competitive market primarily by reducing state involvement. I believe it is.

You hit the nail on the head: I believe that there are a handful of important markets where the "more freedom!" approach not only doesn't lead to optimization, but leads to counter-optimization.

I take international comparisons of health care costs/efficacy as my evidence.

> In my opinion, fears of private monopolies are generally unwarranted, that most "natural" private monopolies are flimsy and temporary.

If only I could force reality to comply with your opinion, I would be a much happier person.

> I fear more the monopolies created by the government, such as the monopoly that "licensed" physicians hold

Seriously?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_heal...

I fear a "free" health care market more than I fear a single-player "govrnment monopoly."

I also object to the use of the term "monopoly" in relationship to the government. Market monopolies have direct incentive to screw you for whatever they can, and they get to keep the spoils. The government has checks and balances that frustrate the process, and the people involved get to keep a far smaller fraction of the spoils. Market monopolies are worse.

Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Liberalists seem to believe that free-marketism is a self-[optimizing] algorithm. It's worth noting that in the US, the term "liberal" is often used in association with those who are skeptical of the free market (moreso than their political opponents, anyway). Classical liberalism does promote laissez-faire economic policy, so you aren't incorrect, but the term is a bit ambiguous in context (see the 2nd paragraph i…

I think cam_l meant libertarian.

I think it's more likely that cam_l was from a country where the term "liberal" was associated with the concept of Classical Liberalism.

Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't assume that the network must be entirely owned by one party. That is the situation right now in the cell and broadcast markets, but it is caused by regulation rather than anything "natural". It isn't the 1940s anymore; wideband radio technology exists that would allow the sharing of all spectrum rather than the single-use requirements we have. After that is adopted the first-mile connection is to a WISP, which…

Wireless is not a panacea even with spread spectrum. You still have a finite amount of radio spectrum you have to share with everybody within range. The amount of bandwidth you can serve to each customer with a fiber-terminating central office every square mile is limited in practice by the cost of installing fiber. The amount of bandwidth you can serve to each customer with a WISP every square mile is limited in pra…

It's true that there is a rural/urban breakover point; I'd contend that is at far greater densities than most people think, especially if we made use of the entire spectrum rather than the drips and drabs meted out so far by the FCC. The portion of the population getting shafted right now, all the "rural" (and most suburban, and urban in Texas-style "sprawling" cities) folks, is definitely a majority. "Laws of physics" arguments aren't convincing at this point, since engineers have had their hands tied by FCC regs. Let a big market for this type of radio tech exist for a decade, and then we'll see what can be done.

Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wireless is not a panacea even with spread spectrum. You still have a finite amount of radio spectrum you have to share with everybody within range. The amount of bandwidth you can serve to each customer with a fiber-terminating central office every square mile is limited in practice by the cost of installing fiber. The amount of bandwidth you can serve to each customer with a WISP every square mile is limited in pra…

It's true that there is a rural/urban breakover point; I'd contend that is at far greater densities than most people think, especially if we made use of the entire spectrum rather than the drips and drabs meted out so far by the FCC. The portion of the population getting shafted right now, all the "rural" (and most suburban, and urban in Texas-style "sprawling" cities) folks, is definitely a majority. "Laws of physic…

You can't use the entire spectrum without addressing the sunk costs problem. All the existing users of the spectrum would have to throw out their equipment and replace it with spread spectrum equipment. Nobody wants to do that, especially when the benefit of them doing it goes primarily to third parties. You want to talk about phasing it out in favor of spread spectrum, fine, but that's going to take years or decades. What do we do in the meantime?

The next piece of trouble is, if you really want high power unlicensed spectrum, what do you do about contention? What happens when scientists start setting up transmitters to continuously send 50Tbps of scientific data from remote monitoring stations to the regional university's data center? Or people set up a distributed mesh network of Tor nodes? Or someone decides to operate a wireless "cable TV" franchise and starts transmitting 50,000 streams of 4K HD?

Don't get me wrong, I think you have the right idea -- spread spectrum is the way to go for wireless and there is room for a lot of innovation there if the FCC would get out of the way. Especially in the way of short and medium range mesh networks. It just isn't a replacement for fiber to the premises.

Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#275
post #20

I consider everybody here very smart. In many cases smarter than myself. Therefore, could somebody please explain why we would give the government, which has shown itself to be terribly incompetent with technology issues, the ability to enforce net neutrality? Seriously, I can't get over the dissonance here. If it's such a shitty idea, let consumers decide. Google Fiber et al will just eat the major telecoms' lunch s…

Amen.

I would argue that it's not even clear how the market would respond to this, and yet the pro-neutrality camp paint a picture of corporate apocalypse. This seems reasonable to me:

Neutrality rules are repealed. Some ISPs begin discriminating against certain publishers that do not pay up, but can use the payments to subsidize reductions in cost of consumer access. The "multitudes" of neutrality proponents begin demanding undiscriminated connections, calling for boycotts, switching to providers that offer such connections. Neutrality activists develop tools to compare and publicize connection rates to different publishers through different ISPs. Small-time providers form associations to raise awareness of the issue as well. Ethical marketing comes into play as some ISPs and some big publishers reject connection rate differentiation. Some ISPs that also own publishing properties are caught or implied to be preferring their own content over competitors, drawing political attention. In some areas, net neutrality laws (not just "rules") are passed, which is a draw for startups. Meanwhile, many who had no home connectivity in the past are now able to afford the "subsidized/sponsored" service level.

What irks me about the middle-class idealogues raising a fuss about this now is that they arbitrarily draw the line of equality around big corporations, with little attention given to the fact that service is tiered at all. If it doesn't make sense for small publishers to be penalized for not ponying up, it should make even less sense for certain individuals in society to be penalized for not being able to afford anything more than dial-up or basic DSL. Going further, it should be more appalling that the most financially under-resourced can't even afford the most basic service level, and live without any internet participation. Instead, they prefer corporations to carry the costs of keeping the level field artificially level, while doing nothing to help those below them have the same level of access they do.

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