Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

481–490 of 491 posts

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#481

Post by rhino369 »

tgflynn wrote: post #106

The common trend we see with the US government is total lack of restraint. It acts as a tyrant and a bully. 1) The government acquires drone technology. Rather than use it to kill a few known terrorists it operates massive drone programs which result in the deaths of 100's of innocent people in multiple countries. 2) The government develops advanced surveillance technology. Rather than use it on a few identified pote…

You only have to look at past wars to see this is clearly not a total lack restraint.

During WWII, the US purposely burned down entire cities (not just small villages, some of the biggest cities in the world) just to scare the shit out of the other side.

In Korea and Vietnam millions of civilians were killed by artillery and air raids on villages and cities. By some accounts nearly all buildings in N. Korea were destroyed by bombing.

Even in Iraqi and Serbia, the US was bombing civilian targets like bridges and power plants.

LOL at FDR being against drones. He was overseeing the purposeful destruction of as many German and Japanese civlians as possible.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#482

Post by idProQuo »

abalone wrote: post #319
jusben1369 wrote: post #112

We need to make sure we're not being manipulated. Here the Guardian is just serving up an emotional, unsubstantiated, one sided view of this discussion. I'm not sure how this is different to much of the chest beating I'd see on Fox News. I'm not here to argue for or against the drones. Just that if we pride ourselves on being educated and critical thinkers that we apply that to all sources of data we read. We all kno…

It's a commentary. Commentaries are supposed to be one-sided. The Guardian commentary appeals to emotion while making it clear where its sympathies lie. That is perfectly acceptable and proper for a commentary. It's also quite relevant to the debate to bring emotion into it. You hinted at it when you asked whether "we're carrying out a lot more sorties than we did prior," but you only mentioned the military cost of i…

Between you and the "let's put ourselves in their shoes" guy, I think I've now changed my view about the use of drones.

Prior to today, I was on board with the "smart bomb" argument. I think people arguing against the use of drones really need to focus on how they're worse than traditional warfare, otherwise people who hold the views I held will just tune out.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#483

Post by yardie »

gcv wrote: post #414
yardie wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? I haven't received my bill for agent orange in forever. Anyone sent to prison for authorising its use? Civil lawsuits? No, there was no cost (except to those directly affected) for using agent orange.

You haven't received a bill? Fascinating — do you not pay taxes? Because if you are, then you most certainly have been paying for medical treatments for veterans and their families, as well as various US government cleanup projects. Civil lawsuit: http://www.benefits.va.gov/compensation/claims-postservice-a...

Sorry, can't find that bill. I pay taxes and I regard any class action funding from the DoD with the same skepticism as the Iraq War. No one is paying for it, not in dollars. We've spent many trillions in Iraq and the government just charges it to the fed who kicks the can down the road.

I'm sure I might pay for it one day. I'm fairly sure my kids and grandchildren will pay for it.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#484

Post by rasengan0 »

Drones remain viable because they cost money. You have to buy them and use them.

Who is profiting from death?

Saving troops on the ground is great marketing and saves political capital.

Tribalism wins; WE GOOD, you Bad.

Someone always makes up the math: X innocent goatherders = 1 US grunt

Such a sad petty waste of and for humanity.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#485

Post by rcthompson »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #214
rcthompson wrote: post #130

How are the drones even relevant to the discussion? There are people controlling some device in order to kill other people. Why does it matter that the device happens to be an UAV in this case? How is it different if the device in question is instead a cruise missile? A rifle? A knife? A fist? To me, the whole discussion about drones is a big misdirection that uses people's irrational fear of "killer robots" to make…

I think complaints are not about drones per se, they are about the US drone program . It doesn't matter whether it's an UAV, a manned aricraft, or a rocket propelled chainsaw. What matters is that there's a program of systematic murder of innocent people on the other side of the globe without any formal declaration of war.

My point is that most of the complaining is about the drones, and it shouldn't be.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#486

Post by classicsnoot »

votingprawn wrote: post #365
classicsnoot wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is not that it happened. The issue is not that people died. The issue is that Drone Warfare allows rich people in power to remotely kill people they deem as threats whilst selling a story of reduced casualties on both sides. The casualties of this kind of war will be human at first...

> allows rich people in power to remotely kill people they deem as threats whilst selling a story of reduced casualties on both sides. Don't expensive manned aircraft with (the same) expensive precision guided munitions allow rich people to do exactly the same thing? A manned aircraft could perform these missions with the same level of "collateral damage" and minimal risk to the pilot.

Absolutely, yes. It requires many years and oodles of cash to train humans to desensitise themselves to the degree it takes to be a good fighter jock [I have a few family members who have flown. They are brilliant. Flying is an amazing endeavour.]. I am sure it takes a fair amount of time to achieve the same level of "discipline" in an RPV team, as well. [Here follows a bunch of things that are personal observations.]I personally believe that both of these categories of specialization are symptomatic of a deeper mental illness in humanity. I am not really interested in less death or more death as some kind of assessment of a things value. Death, in all things, is unavoidable. We, as humans, see ourselves as individuals because it is empowering. In reality, we are largely indistinguishable from each other when one takes a broader perspective. Both fighter jets and military RPVs are cool as hell, but they are both death implements, or deathplements if you are grammatically frisky.

I heard an interesting interview on NPR with a retired CIA chap. He was legal council to some alphabet soup within Central. He pointed out the irony of the controversy over the "Enhanced" Interrogation Techniques" and the relative quiet on the part of the American public about the Dispassionate Remotely Piloted Death Eagle Master Plan[This is the official name of the CIA's RPV program. look it up.]. I found it poignant. he has a book. I believe the title is Company Man.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#487

Post by classicsnoot »

jaekwon wrote: post #378
classicsnoot wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your use of "us" is adorable. There have always been more of "you". Who else would make up the wave assaults, mass labour pools, and factory employees? War may not be necessary from an emotional standpoint, but from a technological standpoint it is the only game in town. The recent developments in peaceful IT are unique in human history, and they themselves are predicated on war technology and research. In fact, i ch…

Nor can you name a single device that is not built off of something non-war related. If you refuse to admit your logical fallacies, then I have no point arguing with you. You think that your psychopathy puts you in some elite category of non-labouring factory commander. It doesn't, it just makes you aberration to be tolerated until you all kill each other. Your failure to ground your value system into your nature --…

I wish i had not had to go dark, because this comment is so full of undefended, feel based dirigibles of nonsense i was having Red Baron flashbacks.

> Nor can you name a single device that is not built off of something non-war related.

The Gloobenstien. This is a device powered off farts. It is used to detect and avoid /b/ronies. You lose.

>You think that your psychopathy puts you in some elite category of non-labouring factory commander.

I think my Borderline Personality Disorder has put me in my parents basement with no job and a huge list of ex-friends and lovers.

>it just makes you {an} aberration to be tolerated until you all kill each other.

What do you mean, "you people", you racist melon farmer? Seriously though, thank you for the new script idea. A serial killer that kills killers via giant, killer death arena called the KILLER DEATH ARENA. It is perfect, because people are fascinated by death, and it is totally unbelievable [Harry Potter, Saving Private Ryan, Deathbed: the Bed the Kills People]. "We" tend to kill you guys. Tigers do not often hunt tigers, though they do attack them if their territories overlap.

>Your failure to ground your value system into your nature -- a fellow human -- makes you an evolution{ary} inconsistency waiting to resolve itself. That is why you are outnumbered.

Evolution is not an intelligent process, you cretin. "We" are outnumbered because "we" cannot hide from our own stupid, unlike some of my human cousins.

>If not,{sic} you'll find that the future holds unexpected surprises for you as your pet machine comes to crush your frail body, only after realizing through trial and failure that you weren't able to transcend your physical nature.

It is like you were watching I,Robot and you accidentally appended your comment with a point in a phantasmagorical argument you had with the cute, bony doctor type. I will not get to transcend my physical nature. I do not want to. I will help build a tomorrow where our future cousins do not have to see each other as adversaries or competitors to make some fuckhead proud of all that he has "gained".

I think you got all feel, and wrote without thinking. I do that so much that i have to take sabbaticals from my commentry. If you actually read this, i would love to have a full on discussion about what you perceive as "us" and where "our" place is in the world.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#488

Post by classicsnoot »

ItendToDisagree wrote: post #437
classicsnoot wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My girlfriend went the BioMed route as well when i posed this question to her. Personally i would have tried business machines. The bulk of all modern medicine (western at least) owes its regimen and SOP to military medicine. Just as i have seen ligatures (tourniquet) go from a no-no to standard practice in the last 10 years, each generation has watched medical science be advanced by martial situations. Epidemiology,…

So you're going with the "Everything came from the caveman's need for fire" argument it sounds like. Unarguably true if you want to reduce that far. I still don't think you can come up with a logical example of Genetics being a war tool (yet) though. Yes Medicine has benefited from war time progress in many ways. But Medicine is not Genetics. While Genetics may be part of medicine (squares are rectangles but rectangl…

I do not think cavemen needed fire, unless of course everything was preplanned but undetermined. It is an interesting thought: a human society that develops without the accessory of tools. I think it is possible, but it would be so fragile.

To all your points about genetics: Edward Wirths, and all the accompanying links in the wikuhpuhDIEuh. I know they may not have known the were the early innovators, nor does their misguided research have a huge part in the modern attempt to begin refining our genetic structure in response to senescence and error. But their techniques are alive and well. If you don't treat the subjects like shit and you keep your mortality rates subdivided so they are not counted together, you can perform a buttton of research.

I know it does not need to come from war to be innovative. I personally believe that all inspiration comes from either fear or love. I think we as humans are exceptionally good at fear. I know i am shit at love.

I love your handle. I would love to talk further with you about some of those "other games".

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#489

Post by jaekwon »

classicsnoot wrote: post #487
jaekwon wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nor can you name a single device that is not built off of something non-war related. If you refuse to admit your logical fallacies, then I have no point arguing with you. You think that your psychopathy puts you in some elite category of non-labouring factory commander. It doesn't, it just makes you aberration to be tolerated until you all kill each other. Your failure to ground your value system into your nature --…

I wish i had not had to go dark, because this comment is so full of undefended, feel based dirigibles of nonsense i was having Red Baron flashbacks. > Nor can you name a single device that is not built off of something non-war related. The Gloobenstien. This is a device powered off farts. It is used to detect and avoid /b/ronies. You lose. >You think that your psychopathy puts you in some elite category of non-labour…

> The Gloobenstien. This is a device powered off farts. It is used to detect and avoid /b/ronies. You lose.

You parsed my sentence wrong or something. I challenged you to find a device that isn't built off of something non-war related. Mind the double negative. You do see the point I'm trying to make, no?

> I think my Borderline Personality Disorder has put me in my parents basement with no job and a huge list of ex-friends and lovers.

That's beside the point but, well, that sucks. Wait, things are starting to make sense.

> What do you mean, "you people", you racist melon farmer? Seriously though, thank you for the new script idea. A serial killer that kills killers via giant, killer death arena called the KILLER DEATH ARENA. It is perfect, because people are fascinated by death, and it is totally unbelievable [Harry Potter, Saving Private Ryan, Deathbed: the Bed the Kills People]. "We" tend to kill you guys. Tigers do not often hunt tigers, though they do attack them if their territories overlap.

You're absolutely right. I actually have no evidence to suggest that non-psychopaths are better or worst off than psychopaths. I was just hoping you'd disappear but I guess that didn't work.

> I will help build a tomorrow where our future cousins do not have to see each other as adversaries or competitors to make some fuckhead proud of all that he has "gained".

OK so you're clearly not a psychopath, so there's nothing more discuss about psychopathy per se. But I believe you are confused about something. There is, to this date, perhaps nothing quite as important as nation-state war and defense in determining the outcome of technological progress. But with the invention of the internet I hypothesize that we won't be seeing the kind of wars we have been seeing in the past -- it's much harder to convince enlightened people to kill another man.

So the battlefield is shifting away from the field to the infrastructure of computation, cryptocurrencies, and social media networks. Popular opinion is what will defeat the drones, not another drone army. And popular demand is what will drive technological innovation in the future, not national "defense" budgets. We've already lost, the world is constantly on the verge of a nuclear meltdown. What good is another killer weapon?

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#490

Post by classicsnoot »

jaekwon wrote: post #489
classicsnoot wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish i had not had to go dark, because this comment is so full of undefended, feel based dirigibles of nonsense i was having Red Baron flashbacks. > Nor can you name a single device that is not built off of something non-war related. The Gloobenstien. This is a device powered off farts. It is used to detect and avoid /b/ronies. You lose. >You think that your psychopathy puts you in some elite category of non-labour…

> The Gloobenstien. This is a device powered off farts. It is used to detect and avoid /b/ronies. You lose. You parsed my sentence wrong or something. I challenged you to find a device that isn't built off of something non-war related. Mind the double negative. You do see the point I'm trying to make, no? > I think my Borderline Personality Disorder has put me in my parents basement with no job and a huge list of ex-…

Your comment shows you have a very narrow view of things like "battlefield", "enlightenment", and, ironically, what the internet is to the vast majority of humans. Nationalism is indeed an insidious concept.

I know i am not a psychopath, but i am not so different from them. You are a mental midget. I assume it is because you are, or esteemed by a small peer group as, inordinately good at some "valuable" skill. Despite this, you are probably not very notable in very many categories. You probably wish you were a 'path or some other distinct brand of different. But you aren't. You are just a person that is good at something, maybe. Why this has developed into a childish fear/loathing of the differently endowed is interesting from a diagnostic standpoint. If you ever get the chance to see a battlefield, or a battle for that matter, you may be unpleasantly surprised at how little has changed in the nature of death. True, the way we deliver the rock has changed, but we still just through rocks and try to make peoples' insides their outsides. It is the attempt to kill, and the counter-attempt to stop the killer, that drives offensive/defensive innovation. The clan aspect of scientific research guarantees that even highly specialized approaches to war making will spin off unintended devices and methodologies.

I believe that the internets of the future as well as a growing understanding and incorporation of "aberrant" personalities will lead to a Pax Humanitae, but only if narrow, hidebound idiots like you are relegated to the peanut gallery.

Post reply on HN