2013: A Linux Christmas • Hacker News Board

Re: 2013: A Linux Christmas

#31

Post by codex » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 9:59 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #28

alan_cx wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Without Linux there would be no Android and Apple would by now own 95% of the smartphone market(1). " You cant conclude that at all. The manufacturers would have had to do something else, and they obviously would have, as in many cases, they were. Android/Linux was an easy, convenient, perhaps even lazy, ship to jump to. Which also means that one could make a case that the presence of Linux for Android use has distr…

Because hardware manufacturers can conjure mature software platforms out of their arse at will. Or something. This is what so many people missed about iOS when it first came out. Building a software platform is a Hard Problem. The other phone manufacturers didn't come out with relevant, equivalently capable competitors to the iPhone in 2008 because it was physically impossible for anyone do so, even for a platform co…

Without Linux, Android would have used something else; likely BSD. iOS is a variant of BSD as well, albeit with a different kernel core.

Re: 2013: A Linux Christmas

#32

Post by throwawaykf03 » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 10:23 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #23

throwawaykf03 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Linux has been a very viable desktop for over a decade. I've been using Linux regularly for the past half decade and daily for the past year as a PC (as opposed to as a development and deployment target for 12 years). No, it's not viable. Not when the competition is Windows and OS X. I'd explain why, but it'd devolve into a huge rant about poor UX, drivers, audio services, file system snafus, grub upgrades gone wro…

The Linux desktop has no more difficulties than the MS desktop (which is also endless "poor UX, drivers, audio services, file system snafus, [...] upgrades gone wrong, bad advice on forums compounding problems.") With a billion dollar marketing budget (like either MS, Google, or Apple) and/or a hardware manufacturing company behind it, it would sell. That's not even really a complement to the Linux desktop, it's more…

> The Linux desktop has no more difficulties than the MS desktop (which is also endless "poor UX, drivers, audio services, file system snafus, [...] upgrades gone wrong, bad advice on forums compounding problems.")

Not in my experience, at least...I use Windows, Linux, OS X regularly these days, in increasing order of usage, with Linux and OS X being almost equal. On average, Linux has given me more trouble than the other two combined.

And there is a billion dollar marketing budget for Linux, and it does sell. Except it's only the kernel that's Linux, and the OS is called Android, and it sells because it has a completely different UX, one that was created with another billion dollars of investment from Google. This unfortunately has no bearing on the quality of the Linux UX on PCs.

Re: 2013: A Linux Christmas

#33

Post by fit2rule » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 11:02 PM UTC

throwawaykf03 wrote: post #20

fit2rule wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would Linux success have been accomplished without integration into the current platforms de jour? This is a specious argument, to be sure. You are saying 'Linux did not succeed on its own because it required hardware vendors to pick it up and push it out there' - well, how else would it have succeeded? Linus building a hardware company? The intention behind the developers of the Linux kernel have always been: bu…

> Linux has been a very viable desktop for over a decade. I've been using Linux regularly for the past half decade and daily for the past year as a PC (as opposed to as a development and deployment target for 12 years). No, it's not viable. Not when the competition is Windows and OS X. I'd explain why, but it'd devolve into a huge rant about poor UX, drivers, audio services, file system snafus, grub upgrades gone wro…

Your anecdote is as good as mine. I've had a viable Linux desktop for 15 years. I don't have driver problems, my machine has been settled and stable and working productively with very, very little effort on my part. I use it every day without even thinking about any issue whatsoever - and I have plenty of interesting hardware attached - two USB hubs, Firewire busses, multiple monitors with 3D acceleration, nvidia cards, and so on.. I've also had a viable Linux DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) for about 12 of those years (another machine). It kicks as much as as any OSX DAW ever did, and I have sources for everything, which OSX doesn't. So its nice if I want to tweak an audio plugin between sessions. I also have multiple Linux servers, countless VM's stored in various places for various things (compiler farms).

I have absolutely no problems with UX, drivers, audio, file system, or grub in any of this. You must have some bad mojo.

>And no, Chromebooks are not a desktop, they're "browser appliances".

Chromebooks are eating the desktop metaphor for lunch. Cloud, as well. Complaining about the Desktop was a good pitch in the 90's, but if you think it matters - at all - now, then you're really not being rational.

Re: 2013: A Linux Christmas

#34

Post by voltagex_ » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 11:28 PM UTC

TillE wrote: post #17

BlackDeath3 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I the only person on the face of the earth who feels like they've had many more technical/reliability issues with Linux (perhaps the blame lies with distributions in particular) than with Windows, over less time?

Nope. Not as a desktop platform, anyway. Ever since KDE3 went obsolete, Linux on the desktop has been a joyless pain for me. Windows is more reliable, and OS X is generally more "usable" in terms of nifty things it can do. Part of that can be blamed on crappy proprietary graphics drivers, but only part. Most of it is just a decade or more of mediocre design.

Are you able to elaborate?

Re: 2013: A Linux Christmas

#35

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 01, 2014, 12:21 AM UTC

bollockitis wrote: post #2

On one hand, I'm happy to see the Linux kernel being used in all sorts of consumer devices. It's a real victory for the developers and for the open source model. On the other hand, it has only been successful because it has enabled major corporations to fight the mobile platform wars. Linux hasn't succeeded on its own merits but as an economical way for companies to bootstrap their own products to fight for Apple's l…

[deleted]

Re: 2013: A Linux Christmas

#36

Post by Zardoz84 » Wed, Jan 01, 2014, 1:23 AM UTC

TillE wrote: post #17

BlackDeath3 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I the only person on the face of the earth who feels like they've had many more technical/reliability issues with Linux (perhaps the blame lies with distributions in particular) than with Windows, over less time?

Nope. Not as a desktop platform, anyway. Ever since KDE3 went obsolete, Linux on the desktop has been a joyless pain for me. Windows is more reliable, and OS X is generally more "usable" in terms of nifty things it can do. Part of that can be blamed on crappy proprietary graphics drivers, but only part. Most of it is just a decade or more of mediocre design.

You should try KDE 4. Actually is very madure and more comfortable of using that Windows, also is reliable as actually is very rare to see a serious bug, and if this happens, KWin/KDE recover itself alone in seconds.

The only problems that I have (sometimes) actually with Linux are graphics drivers.

Re: 2013: A Linux Christmas

#37

Post by Mikeb85 » Wed, Jan 01, 2014, 2:59 AM UTC

throwawaykf03 wrote: post #20

fit2rule wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would Linux success have been accomplished without integration into the current platforms de jour? This is a specious argument, to be sure. You are saying 'Linux did not succeed on its own because it required hardware vendors to pick it up and push it out there' - well, how else would it have succeeded? Linus building a hardware company? The intention behind the developers of the Linux kernel have always been: bu…

> Linux has been a very viable desktop for over a decade. I've been using Linux regularly for the past half decade and daily for the past year as a PC (as opposed to as a development and deployment target for 12 years). No, it's not viable. Not when the competition is Windows and OS X. I'd explain why, but it'd devolve into a huge rant about poor UX, drivers, audio services, file system snafus, grub upgrades gone wro…

Chrome OS is a Gentoo-based distro. And they are quite capable. If you want the traditional Linux tools, put it in developer mode....

Re: 2013: A Linux Christmas

#38

Post by throwawaykf03 » Wed, Jan 01, 2014, 4:27 AM UTC

fit2rule wrote: post #33

throwawaykf03 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Linux has been a very viable desktop for over a decade. I've been using Linux regularly for the past half decade and daily for the past year as a PC (as opposed to as a development and deployment target for 12 years). No, it's not viable. Not when the competition is Windows and OS X. I'd explain why, but it'd devolve into a huge rant about poor UX, drivers, audio services, file system snafus, grub upgrades gone wro…

Your anecdote is as good as mine. I've had a viable Linux desktop for 15 years. I don't have driver problems, my machine has been settled and stable and working productively with very, very little effort on my part. I use it every day without even thinking about any issue whatsoever - and I have plenty of interesting hardware attached - two USB hubs, Firewire busses, multiple monitors with 3D acceleration, nvidia car…

> Your anecdote is as good as mine.

Agreed, but as long as anecdotes like mine abound (see also: other comments in this thread, or on any Linux thread anywhere in general), I think Linux on the PC will go nowhere. As others have mentioned, this is often the fault of vendors and drivers that Linux can do little about, but that's not going to excuse it for most users.

> Chromebooks are eating the desktop metaphor for lunch.

I think it's too early to call that right now, especially based on some really questionable statistics. There is some potential for Chromebooks, but in the long run tablets will probably prevail in that space.

Re: 2013: A Linux Christmas

#39

Post by ac29 » Wed, Jan 01, 2014, 6:22 AM UTC

bollockitis wrote: post #2

On one hand, I'm happy to see the Linux kernel being used in all sorts of consumer devices. It's a real victory for the developers and for the open source model. On the other hand, it has only been successful because it has enabled major corporations to fight the mobile platform wars. Linux hasn't succeeded on its own merits but as an economical way for companies to bootstrap their own products to fight for Apple's l…

>Linux hasn't succeeded on its own merits but as an economical way for companies to bootstrap their own products to fight for Apple's leftovers.

Please. Apple makes decent products, but I'm not aware of a single market they dominate. Microsoft (still) dominates laptops and desktops, Linux (still) dominates servers, and while Apple enjoyed a brief period of dominance in the US smartphone (but not overall mobile phone) market, they dont dominate that either now (and the in the international market, they are borderline irrelevant).

Apple is an influential but marketshare minor player in consumer electronics.

Re: 2013: A Linux Christmas

#40

Post by fit2rule » Wed, Jan 01, 2014, 11:32 AM UTC

throwawaykf03 wrote: post #38

fit2rule wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your anecdote is as good as mine. I've had a viable Linux desktop for 15 years. I don't have driver problems, my machine has been settled and stable and working productively with very, very little effort on my part. I use it every day without even thinking about any issue whatsoever - and I have plenty of interesting hardware attached - two USB hubs, Firewire busses, multiple monitors with 3D acceleration, nvidia car…

> Your anecdote is as good as mine. Agreed, but as long as anecdotes like mine abound (see also: other comments in this thread, or on any Linux thread anywhere in general), I think Linux on the PC will go nowhere. As others have mentioned, this is often the fault of vendors and drivers that Linux can do little about, but that's not going to excuse it for most users. > Chromebooks are eating the desktop metaphor for l…

I'm seeing far more success stories for Linux adoption than failures. If, as you say, anecdotes like yours abound, then there would hardly be any Linux use at all. However, fortunately, your situation is not as common as you think - and in fact the successes are far, far more common. Or else we wouldn't have the subject to discuss: it would have festered, already.

But, it didn't fester, because the fact is: Linux works great on the Desktop. Really, really great. And it offers far more powerful features than the competition. So that is why its thriving.

The days of 'drivers being better on Windows' are over, by the way.