2013: A Linux Christmas • Hacker News Board

Re: 2013: A Linux Christmas

#21

Post by sophacles » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 7:13 PM UTC

bollockitis wrote: post #2

On one hand, I'm happy to see the Linux kernel being used in all sorts of consumer devices. It's a real victory for the developers and for the open source model. On the other hand, it has only been successful because it has enabled major corporations to fight the mobile platform wars. Linux hasn't succeeded on its own merits but as an economical way for companies to bootstrap their own products to fight for Apple's l…

This is a very strange reading of history. From the time I came across linux in 97, there were always different groups within the linux world with different goals.

Yes, there was a large group devoted to the linux desktop. They never really succeeded at large scale.

But there was also a large group devoted to linux in the embedded space fighting the likes of windriver, qnx, etc. A sub-branch of this was the realtime linux folks. In the embedded market linux is pretty widely used. Even in real-time. Not dominant, but no longer a "WTF" level competitor.

A different group was focused on taking the server world over, at the time a "serious server" was a Sun box runing Solaris or something from HP running HP-UX. Occasionally Irix was used. Lots of things were serving from Windows NT. These days server tends to mean "Linux box".

Related but different was the world of HPC - at the time the big computers were running all sorts of OSes, IRIX was pretty popular, as was Solaris, and other forms of unix. Similarly supercomputing and cluster computing was proprietary OSes, but linux wanted in there too. Now they mostly run linux.

The argument you are making at it's core is that the thousands of people and companies that use and contribute to linux have a single unified goal. This is not true, nor has it ever been. Well, I guess you could say the goal has been "make it useful for my case", and that is a truth, but generic enough to mean anything.

In fact I would say that other than the desktop, an arguably mobile, linux has pretty much dominated the fields it entered.

I say arguably mobile, because it is still questionable if Apple dominated for technical reasons or fad reasons. There are lots of people these days I talk to who say stuff like "I'm thinking my next phone won't be an iPhone". It remains to be seen what will happen.

Re: 2013: A Linux Christmas

#22

Post by mbq » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 7:39 PM UTC

BlackDeath3 wrote: post #16

jebblue wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Linux isn't something people want Check out YouTube, Windows isn't something people want anymore, not like the 90's. Give it up, more and more people want a solid, stable, secure, reliable, fast computer. When they ask their techie friends how to get that, almost invariably the answer comes back - install Linux or buy a computer that comes with it pre-installed.

Am I the only person on the face of the earth who feels like they've had many more technical/reliability issues with Linux (perhaps the blame lies with distributions in particular) than with Windows, over less time?

Sure no; but 97% of OS problems are hardware problems and OS/X and Windows are lucky to have hardware makers care to optimise their product for them. Still, with some research _before_ buying you can get a perfectly flawless Linux experience. And if you are lazy, there are rare but still options already baked for Linux, even from huge vendors like Dell.

Re: 2013: A Linux Christmas

#23

Post by pessimizer » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 7:51 PM UTC

throwawaykf03 wrote: post #20

fit2rule wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would Linux success have been accomplished without integration into the current platforms de jour? This is a specious argument, to be sure. You are saying 'Linux did not succeed on its own because it required hardware vendors to pick it up and push it out there' - well, how else would it have succeeded? Linus building a hardware company? The intention behind the developers of the Linux kernel have always been: bu…

> Linux has been a very viable desktop for over a decade. I've been using Linux regularly for the past half decade and daily for the past year as a PC (as opposed to as a development and deployment target for 12 years). No, it's not viable. Not when the competition is Windows and OS X. I'd explain why, but it'd devolve into a huge rant about poor UX, drivers, audio services, file system snafus, grub upgrades gone wro…

The Linux desktop has no more difficulties than the MS desktop (which is also endless "poor UX, drivers, audio services, file system snafus, [...] upgrades gone wrong, bad advice on forums compounding problems.") With a billion dollar marketing budget (like either MS, Google, or Apple) and/or a hardware manufacturing company behind it, it would sell.

That's not even really a complement to the Linux desktop, it's more a statement about what a billion dollars can do.

The quality of the desktops of the members of this oligopoly has a negligible influence on the uptake IMO. The iPod/iTunes pair was one of the functionally worst (but one of the prettiest) products of its category. Android and iPhone have taken nearly a decade to reinvent basic functionality taken for granted on most computers. Doesn't matter.

Re: 2013: A Linux Christmas

#24

Post by noonespecial » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 7:54 PM UTC

bollockitis wrote: post #2

On one hand, I'm happy to see the Linux kernel being used in all sorts of consumer devices. It's a real victory for the developers and for the open source model. On the other hand, it has only been successful because it has enabled major corporations to fight the mobile platform wars. Linux hasn't succeeded on its own merits but as an economical way for companies to bootstrap their own products to fight for Apple's l…

Linux hasn't succeeded on its own merits but as an economical way for companies to bootstrap their own products...

That is one of the (biggest) merits of linux. Its a "compute core" that can be the start of many products, including but very much not limited to desktops. Sure we wanted linux to usurp the absolute power of Microsoft on the desktop in the 90s, but the "desktop" becomes less of a 'thing' every day, and linux (FOSS in general) is just getting started.

Re: 2013: A Linux Christmas

#25

Post by pessimizer » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 7:57 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #7

bollockitis wrote: post #2

On one hand, I'm happy to see the Linux kernel being used in all sorts of consumer devices. It's a real victory for the developers and for the open source model. On the other hand, it has only been successful because it has enabled major corporations to fight the mobile platform wars. Linux hasn't succeeded on its own merits but as an economical way for companies to bootstrap their own products to fight for Apple's l…

Linux has changed the world. Yes of course I'm talking about the kernel, that's what Linux is. It's what it's always been. Without Linux there would be no Android and Apple would by now own 95% of the smartphone market(1). Server infrastructure across the industry, including Web hosting, would cost an arm and a leg due to proprietary Unix license costs. Services like Rackspace and AWS would likely be barely viable, i…

I love Linux, but GNU is the important part. If Linus had gone into housepainting or commercial fishing, I'd gladly be using Debian GNU/FreeBSD or Debian GNU/Minix or whatever.

Re: 2013: A Linux Christmas

#26

Post by aeroevan » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 7:59 PM UTC

throwawaykf03 wrote: post #20

fit2rule wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would Linux success have been accomplished without integration into the current platforms de jour? This is a specious argument, to be sure. You are saying 'Linux did not succeed on its own because it required hardware vendors to pick it up and push it out there' - well, how else would it have succeeded? Linus building a hardware company? The intention behind the developers of the Linux kernel have always been: bu…

> Linux has been a very viable desktop for over a decade. I've been using Linux regularly for the past half decade and daily for the past year as a PC (as opposed to as a development and deployment target for 12 years). No, it's not viable. Not when the competition is Windows and OS X. I'd explain why, but it'd devolve into a huge rant about poor UX, drivers, audio services, file system snafus, grub upgrades gone wro…

I, on the other hand, have been using Linux on the desktop/laptop for over a decade and it's worked fine for me.

Granted, the last Windows version I used was Windows XP (pre SP 1), but I also got a SantaRosa MacBook several years ago and found OS X's WM to be fairly outdated at the time.

That being said, I am seriously considering buying a new MacBook Pro since I need a new laptop with lots of RAM.

Re: 2013: A Linux Christmas

#27

Post by keithpeter » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 8:20 PM UTC

throwawaykf03 wrote: post #20

fit2rule wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would Linux success have been accomplished without integration into the current platforms de jour? This is a specious argument, to be sure. You are saying 'Linux did not succeed on its own because it required hardware vendors to pick it up and push it out there' - well, how else would it have succeeded? Linus building a hardware company? The intention behind the developers of the Linux kernel have always been: bu…

> Linux has been a very viable desktop for over a decade. I've been using Linux regularly for the past half decade and daily for the past year as a PC (as opposed to as a development and deployment target for 12 years). No, it's not viable. Not when the competition is Windows and OS X. I'd explain why, but it'd devolve into a huge rant about poor UX, drivers, audio services, file system snafus, grub upgrades gone wro…

"I'd explain why, but it'd devolve into a huge rant about poor UX, drivers, audio services, file system snafus, grub upgrades gone wrong, bad advice on forums compounding problems, all of which get brought up ad nauseum in any Linux thread."

Earth it all on a Web page somewhere and post a link back here. I'd be interested, with the exception of the bad advice on forums bit.

Re: 2013: A Linux Christmas

#28

Post by simonh » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 8:25 PM UTC

alan_cx wrote: post #14

simonh wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux has changed the world. Yes of course I'm talking about the kernel, that's what Linux is. It's what it's always been. Without Linux there would be no Android and Apple would by now own 95% of the smartphone market(1). Server infrastructure across the industry, including Web hosting, would cost an arm and a leg due to proprietary Unix license costs. Services like Rackspace and AWS would likely be barely viable, i…

"Without Linux there would be no Android and Apple would by now own 95% of the smartphone market(1). " You cant conclude that at all. The manufacturers would have had to do something else, and they obviously would have, as in many cases, they were. Android/Linux was an easy, convenient, perhaps even lazy, ship to jump to. Which also means that one could make a case that the presence of Linux for Android use has distr…

Because hardware manufacturers can conjure mature software platforms out of their arse at will. Or something.

This is what so many people missed about iOS when it first came out. Building a software platform is a Hard Problem. The other phone manufacturers didn't come out with relevant, equivalently capable competitors to the iPhone in 2008 because it was physically impossible for anyone do so, even for a platform company with deep pockets like Microsoft, in that time frame. Even Android took years to redevelop so it could get even close.

There was nothing lazy about adopting Android, the handset manufacturers had no other viable choice. The advantage Apple had opened up was wide enough that even WebOS, which was arguably even closer to catching up than Android, failed because it didn't have the same level of long term investment and support from an experienced software company that Google gave to Android. It ran out of time and money, when we're talking about more than just a few years and hundreds of millions of dollars.

Re: 2013: A Linux Christmas

#29

Post by BlackDeath3 » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 8:43 PM UTC

TillE wrote: post #17

BlackDeath3 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I the only person on the face of the earth who feels like they've had many more technical/reliability issues with Linux (perhaps the blame lies with distributions in particular) than with Windows, over less time?

Nope. Not as a desktop platform, anyway. Ever since KDE3 went obsolete, Linux on the desktop has been a joyless pain for me. Windows is more reliable, and OS X is generally more "usable" in terms of nifty things it can do. Part of that can be blamed on crappy proprietary graphics drivers, but only part. Most of it is just a decade or more of mediocre design.

I hope this isn't being downvoted simply because TillE isn't fellating Linux. We all have different experiences here, and while I'd be interested to see elaboration on this comment there really is no reason to hide it.

Re: 2013: A Linux Christmas

#30

Post by blibble » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 9:28 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #25

simonh wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux has changed the world. Yes of course I'm talking about the kernel, that's what Linux is. It's what it's always been. Without Linux there would be no Android and Apple would by now own 95% of the smartphone market(1). Server infrastructure across the industry, including Web hosting, would cost an arm and a leg due to proprietary Unix license costs. Services like Rackspace and AWS would likely be barely viable, i…

I love Linux, but GNU is the important part. If Linus had gone into housepainting or commercial fishing, I'd gladly be using Debian GNU/FreeBSD or Debian GNU/Minix or whatever.

it really isn't, there's no GNU in Android