The NSA Reportedly Has Total Access To The Apple iPhone • Hacker News Board

Re: The NSA Reportedly Has Total Access To The Apple iPhone

#151

Post by Touche » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 1:28 PM UTC

Theodores wrote: post #135

blub wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, Stalin is responsible for more suffering than possibly anyone in recent history. He probably killed more russian people than the german soldiers. His policies screwed up a significant part of the world for decades.

He also gave Communism a bad name, and, by proxy, Socialism. These systems of government did not have all of the answers, however we now have free market economics everywhere with anything vaguely socialist being absolutely taboo. We have not a lot of diversity in government, government is nowadays about managing a country rather than anything ideological. Some diversity is better even if other systems are not how on…

> He also gave Communism a bad name, and, by proxy, Socialism.

You should read the things Lenin did, and the many more things he advocated doing. Read his pre-revolution material as well, he was one of the leading theorists.

> These systems of government did not have all of the answers

That's not true, read anything by Marx, Engels, Trotsky, or Lenin and not only did they have an answer for almost everything, they (especially the latter two) believed maximally that there is "only one way".

Re: The NSA Reportedly Has Total Access To The Apple iPhone

#152

Post by mgkimsal » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 1:29 PM UTC

salient wrote: post #149

JunkDNA wrote: post #142

I know this headline generates traffic by being about the iPhone, but this is a minor point. The big message from Jacob's talk and the original articles in Der Spiegel is that the NSA can intercept anything. Period. Full stop. People have suspected such far reaching capabilities for some time. This talk and the articles demonstrate that it exists. I'm personally a little uncomfortable with this kind of disclosure. On…

First off, I don't think anyone except "tinfoil hats" really imagined the scale of NSA spying. Who really thought the NSA would try to subvert the cryptographic standards they pretend to create to "secure systems"? Who really thought they'd go to US service and hardware companies and ask them to implement backdoors for them? Also, there's a big difference between letting NSA protect US against Real Threats - real nat…

"Going by how fast they passed the bill, and how few details were offered, you can't really blame most people for "not knowing"."

True, but perhaps someday we can learn to not advocate the passage of bills in such a short amount of time that representatives themselves do not have a chance to read or digest them, much less have debate about the specific contents. I say perhaps because I suspect we'll continue to see much more of this until there's some sort of mechanical change requiring a X day waiting period on any legislation introduced, and/or something requiring reps to sign a document with real penalties for perjury that they've read the damn things before voting on them.

Re: The NSA Reportedly Has Total Access To The Apple iPhone

#153

Post by wslh » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 1:30 PM UTC

CervezaPorFavor wrote: post #146

wslh wrote: post #136

I am waiting for a real GNU phone. The original free software spirit is not there yet.

Since explots can be done through hardware, firmware and software, how is a GNU phone better (genuine question)?

You can take into account initiatives like OpenCores: http://opencores.org/

Vulnerabilities exists anywhere for sure but the community (whatever it means) should create a defense against those threads.

Re: The NSA Reportedly Has Total Access To The Apple iPhone

#154

Post by Touche » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 1:32 PM UTC

sigzero wrote: post #150

Touche wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know this headline generates traffic by being about the iPhone, but this is a minor point. I disagree, the article implies that Apple might (probably?) is helping them with their spying. This is not a minor point for me. I think it's very important to expose which tech companies are betraying their customers, and conversely which are not.

No, the article didn't imply that. "Here’s a problem: I don’t really believe that Apple didn’t help them." That is a bullshit statement. It is pure speculation without a SHRED of facts to back it up.

> No, the article didn't imply that.

There's a whole paragraph about that. You quoted part of it. It's not a minor point of the article. There's no smoking gun but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed.

Re: The NSA Reportedly Has Total Access To The Apple iPhone

#155

Post by jokoon » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 1:37 PM UTC

One thing is true: whatever your phone is, the more complex, the more features, the more risks there are.

I really don't see the advantages of having a handsized computer, really. The performance/battery/usability/cost compromises are not really making it worth it.

Most people do a lot of text messaging, usual smartphones are not designed for it. Old school, classic cellphone do it pretty well.

Why would you need the internet while you're outside, in the cold, in the train, while not sitting ? You only need an iPhone for very unnecessary, unplanned, rich things.

For example, you need to locate something, like the nearest restaurant, or coffee place, in a town you know nothing about. The data transfer and costs to make a web search on such a low-powered device, will be ridiculous if you compare it to just asking somebody.

You're in a coffee place, you're arguing about something, and you want to know who's right, so you want to search it on the web. Why not just enable the wifi, and why not carry your 13 inch notebook ?

You want to read your emails. Even if you receive email, what's the real difference with text messaging ? Emails are for long message on which you can attach big files. Email is a very old protocol, and it wasn't really thought to work hand in hand with text messaging.

You want to read a digital document. If you're in for a long, comfortable read, use an ebook device, use the small screen of a classic cellphone, or just plan ahead and print it.

Smartphones are all-in one, expensive, software and hardware quirky solutions which are just not that much awesome. Computers are not entirely secure. A smartphone will create new technical challenges, but also many other risks, especially if you have a homogenous device like the iPhone.

Engineers should start to create protocols and software which are already designed for smaller devices, not create smaller powerful computers: laptops and desktops are already at the limit of tiny.

Apple created a market of an attractive, dreamy device, which sold, and the market followed, but the truth is, there is much more to do on the embedded software design.

Re: The NSA Reportedly Has Total Access To The Apple iPhone

#156

Post by JunkDNA » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 1:42 PM UTC

salient wrote: post #149

JunkDNA wrote: post #142

I know this headline generates traffic by being about the iPhone, but this is a minor point. The big message from Jacob's talk and the original articles in Der Spiegel is that the NSA can intercept anything. Period. Full stop. People have suspected such far reaching capabilities for some time. This talk and the articles demonstrate that it exists. I'm personally a little uncomfortable with this kind of disclosure. On…

First off, I don't think anyone except "tinfoil hats" really imagined the scale of NSA spying. Who really thought the NSA would try to subvert the cryptographic standards they pretend to create to "secure systems"? Who really thought they'd go to US service and hardware companies and ask them to implement backdoors for them? Also, there's a big difference between letting NSA protect US against Real Threats - real nat…

But my issue is that very little in the slides released by Der Spiegel talks about the actual targets where devices were employed. There is the Internet dragnet stuff which is rightly worrisome, but the vast majority of the slides are similar to the one about the iPhone and detail targeted exploits: specific phones, specific servers, specific routers. Targeted spying on real threats requires those capabilities. Unfortunately, if deployed at scale they could be used for large scale spying. But there is no evidence here that these methods are used in this way (in contrast to stuff like PRISM). I think that's what makes me uncomfortable here. There is a bit of sloppiness going on where people are trying to conflate techniques for targeted spying with mass surveillance. I think it's important to be careful to make the distinctions.

Re: The NSA Reportedly Has Total Access To The Apple iPhone

#157

Post by JunkDNA » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 1:47 PM UTC

Touche wrote: post #148

JunkDNA wrote: post #142

I know this headline generates traffic by being about the iPhone, but this is a minor point. The big message from Jacob's talk and the original articles in Der Spiegel is that the NSA can intercept anything. Period. Full stop. People have suspected such far reaching capabilities for some time. This talk and the articles demonstrate that it exists. I'm personally a little uncomfortable with this kind of disclosure. On…

> I know this headline generates traffic by being about the iPhone, but this is a minor point. I disagree, the article implies that Apple might (probably?) is helping them with their spying. This is not a minor point for me. I think it's very important to expose which tech companies are betraying their customers, and conversely which are not.

Jacob made this assertion in his talk but presented no evidence. He explicitly said he wanted to call out the companies because they should be held accountable if they were complicit in this.

But no evidence was presented that any of the hardware companies were coordinating with the NSA. Given that jail breaking continues to exist, it is entirely possible that Apple and other companies are victims of security exploits identified by the NSA.

That being said, it would be good to get some companies on record on this.

Re: The NSA Reportedly Has Total Access To The Apple iPhone

#158

Post by InclinedPlane » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 1:48 PM UTC

JunkDNA wrote: post #142

I know this headline generates traffic by being about the iPhone, but this is a minor point. The big message from Jacob's talk and the original articles in Der Spiegel is that the NSA can intercept anything. Period. Full stop. People have suspected such far reaching capabilities for some time. This talk and the articles demonstrate that it exists. I'm personally a little uncomfortable with this kind of disclosure. On…

The absolute, fundamental founding principle of the US constitution is the limitation of powers of the government. Such power is limited by splitting it three ways and having separate institutions keeping each other in check, through the will of the people via voting electing representatives and the president, and through the very strong protections of individual liberty embodied in the bill of rights.

And yet today we find ourselves in a situation where bit by bit those limitations have been eroded so severely that they might as well not exist. We have organizations, such as the NSA, who have multi-billion dollar budgets with limited oversight and little public transparency. Who similarly operate with limited oversight in conditions of near utter secrecy. Who, through those conditions, have essentially unfettered ability to undertake any conceivable surveillance effort imaginable and much else besides.

It is simply untenable to have so many people with such power and no accountability and also maintain democratic institutions and preserve individual liberty. We should be thankful that, so far as I am aware, there has not been an individual with an excess of competence and ambition combined with a scarcity of morals or we would be in a much worse place today. But realistically it is only a matter of time before this power falls into the wrong hands. We have already been dangerously close in relatively recent history, such as with J. Edgar Hoover, we should not be courting fate again.

It would not be an exaggeration to say that how we handle this crisis will greatly affect the near-future history of the United States and significantly affect the future of all mankind in the 21st century and beyond. This is potentially a defining moment for this generation.

Re: The NSA Reportedly Has Total Access To The Apple iPhone

#159

Post by Theodores » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 1:48 PM UTC

Touche wrote: post #151

Theodores wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He also gave Communism a bad name, and, by proxy, Socialism. These systems of government did not have all of the answers, however we now have free market economics everywhere with anything vaguely socialist being absolutely taboo. We have not a lot of diversity in government, government is nowadays about managing a country rather than anything ideological. Some diversity is better even if other systems are not how on…

> He also gave Communism a bad name, and, by proxy, Socialism. You should read the things Lenin did, and the many more things he advocated doing. Read his pre-revolution material as well, he was one of the leading theorists. > These systems of government did not have all of the answers That's not true, read anything by Marx, Engels, Trotsky, or Lenin and not only did they have an answer for almost everything, they (e…

I appreciate where you are coming from, however, from my childhood reading of Das Kapital I cannot recall a great deal about Peak Oil, the merits of a surveillance state and much else that is pertinent to today's world. That is what I mean by 'not having all the answers'.

Re: The NSA Reportedly Has Total Access To The Apple iPhone

#160

Post by leephillips » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 1:52 PM UTC

salient wrote: post #149

JunkDNA wrote: post #142

I know this headline generates traffic by being about the iPhone, but this is a minor point. The big message from Jacob's talk and the original articles in Der Spiegel is that the NSA can intercept anything. Period. Full stop. People have suspected such far reaching capabilities for some time. This talk and the articles demonstrate that it exists. I'm personally a little uncomfortable with this kind of disclosure. On…

First off, I don't think anyone except "tinfoil hats" really imagined the scale of NSA spying. Who really thought the NSA would try to subvert the cryptographic standards they pretend to create to "secure systems"? Who really thought they'd go to US service and hardware companies and ask them to implement backdoors for them? Also, there's a big difference between letting NSA protect US against Real Threats - real nat…

"Who really thought the NSA would try to subvert the cryptographic standards they pretend to create"

I first encountered speculation that this was the case in a textbook from 1986, in a chapter discussing encryption algorithms in wide use that were contributed to by the NSA.

"Who really thought they'd go to US service and hardware companies and ask them to implement backdoors"

The fascinating book The Puzzle Palace, from 1982, describes the precursors to the NSA setting up shop in telegraph offices and copying all traffic with the collusion of the new industry.

None of this is new, and none of it is in the least bit surprising.