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'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

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Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#91

Post by nknighthb »

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #85
nknighthb wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clever, cutting off the parenthetical. Also clever attempting to derail. Actually, no, pretty pathetic attempt at derailing. Absolutely no one should be subject to these requirements, poor, minority, white, or rich. The fact that they disenfranchise some people is one of the reasons why.

Pathetic attempt at derailing? Not really. You talked about the millions that don't have an ID. I don't dispute that. But then you talked about all the people that DO have an ID but have to content with keeping it up to date. As if that is some burden unique to minorities and the poor. That is what I dispute. No derailment needed from me. You took it there. Your parenthetical was just you're way to justify why they g…

None of it should be a prerequisite for voting. I don't know what debate you think is happening here, but it's not the one you seem eager to have. This is about the reasons against requiring IDs for voting and only for voting. It has nothing to do with any of the other reasons you might have ID, nor is it an argument about what the requirements should be for having a valid ID. It is only about requiring ID for voting. That is all.

This is why I say you're derailing: You're not talking about voter ID, you're just talking about ID in general.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#92

Post by mschuster91 »

Tomte wrote: post #84
bananacurve wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. You have to register at the Police station when you move and hospitals have to report if patients are illegal aliens. Very advanced.

You usually register at the town's "citizen's office", where you can also pay for your garbage disposal, get parking passes, apply for your driver's license, have the lost+found, and so on. Registering at the police station is something from the sixties or seventies, I think. "Police" back then had a lot more duties that are now located in other administrative offices. But "police" is a complicated term in Germany, a…

In Croatia (I'm a multi-national) registrations actually do happen at the police office in small-ish towns. It's a culture thing, I believe...

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#93

Post by jack-r-abbit »

nknighthb wrote: post #91
jack-r-abbit wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pathetic attempt at derailing? Not really. You talked about the millions that don't have an ID. I don't dispute that. But then you talked about all the people that DO have an ID but have to content with keeping it up to date. As if that is some burden unique to minorities and the poor. That is what I dispute. No derailment needed from me. You took it there. Your parenthetical was just you're way to justify why they g…

None of it should be a prerequisite for voting. I don't know what debate you think is happening here, but it's not the one you seem eager to have. This is about the reasons against requiring IDs for voting and only for voting . It has nothing to do with any of the other reasons you might have ID, nor is it an argument about what the requirements should be for having a valid ID. It is only about requiring ID for votin…

Then why do so many people argue about how it is hard for minorities and the poor to get an ID? If that is not what this is about then it has no place in the argument against requiring an ID to vote. Your original comment was almost entirely about how hard it is for those people to get an ID. So again... no derailment from me. You brought it up.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#94

Post by nknighthb »

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #93
nknighthb wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of it should be a prerequisite for voting. I don't know what debate you think is happening here, but it's not the one you seem eager to have. This is about the reasons against requiring IDs for voting and only for voting . It has nothing to do with any of the other reasons you might have ID, nor is it an argument about what the requirements should be for having a valid ID. It is only about requiring ID for votin…

Then why do so many people argue about how it is hard for minorities and the poor to get an ID? If that is not what this is about then it has no place in the argument against requiring an ID to vote. Your original comment was almost entirely about how hard it is for those people to get an ID. So again... no derailment from me. You brought it up.

The difficulty of getting an ID is a reason not to require the ID for voting.

If you want to make getting an ID easier, good for you. I don't believe for a moment you will succeed, because IDs are used for things other than voting, where their requirements may actually be necessary.

The set of necessary requirements for voting may overlap with, but is not identical to the set of necessary requirements for state ID. Unless and until they are identical, requiring the ID for voting is a violation of rights.

This will be my last reply to you, because if you still don't understand, you're either never going to, or you already understand all too well and are deliberately derailing.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#95

Post by MichaelSalib »

meddlepal wrote: post #67
spindritf wrote: post #21

The outcry in the US over requiring someone to show an ID to vote is one of the most bizarre things to come out of that country. And, to make it even more unusual, it's coming from the left, the very people who used to love issuing IDs, numbers, and whose intellectual and ideological predecessors set up most of those schemes. Practically, as much as the anarchist in me doesn't like that, you cannot have a mass societ…

Everyone should have a secure, single identity card in any modern developed nation that can be used for identity verification. One card. Federal and State governments can assign privileges to the card (driving, medicare etc.). Even expand it so the card can be used to verify credit and debit card authenticity etc. That's my dream, but right now we are stuck in firmly in 20th century-modes of thinking about ID. I'm lo…

Why do we keep excusing people from having a basic mechanism to prove who they say they are?

Given that bored teenagers in search of beer can easily forge IDs, what makes you think current photo ID cards are an effective certificate for proving identity?

If you cannot handle getting and maintaining an ID maybe one ought not be able to vote because you're just not responsible enough to handle it.

See, this notion right here? This is literally unamerican. Americans get to vote. It doesn't matter if you think they're lazy or smell bad or if they don't demonstrate responsibility to your satisfaction: you don't get to decide which citizens can vote. A lot of people have died so that Americans can vote without your approval.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#96

Post by poke111 »

Why does everyone say that no large scale voter fraud ever happened in the US? What about the presidential election of 1960? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_elec...

Even small scale fraud is enough to tip a close election, and I don't think too many people doubt that it does happen.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#97

Post by jack-r-abbit »

nknighthb wrote: post #94
jack-r-abbit wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why do so many people argue about how it is hard for minorities and the poor to get an ID? If that is not what this is about then it has no place in the argument against requiring an ID to vote. Your original comment was almost entirely about how hard it is for those people to get an ID. So again... no derailment from me. You brought it up.

The difficulty of getting an ID is a reason not to require the ID for voting. If you want to make getting an ID easier, good for you. I don't believe for a moment you will succeed, because IDs are used for things other than voting, where their requirements may actually be necessary. The set of necessary requirements for voting may overlap with, but is not identical to the set of necessary requirements for state ID. U…

Wait. You can't tell me that the difficulty of getting an ID is a reason not to require the ID for voting right after you told me this is not an argument about what the requirements should be for having a valid ID. If one of your reasons for not requiring ID to vote is that they are difficult to get then you pretty much are required to let people argue they are not difficult to get. Otherwise you have presented an argument which you will not let people attempt to refute. I don't think it works that way.

A state ID isn't much more than a standardized document that says the state has identified you and can vouch for your identity. If one of the requirements to vote is to be identified, it seems reasonable that the state takes care of that identification in a standardized way.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#98

Post by meddlepal »

MichaelSalib wrote: post #95
meddlepal wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone should have a secure, single identity card in any modern developed nation that can be used for identity verification. One card. Federal and State governments can assign privileges to the card (driving, medicare etc.). Even expand it so the card can be used to verify credit and debit card authenticity etc. That's my dream, but right now we are stuck in firmly in 20th century-modes of thinking about ID. I'm lo…

Why do we keep excusing people from having a basic mechanism to prove who they say they are? Given that bored teenagers in search of beer can easily forge IDs, what makes you think current photo ID cards are an effective certificate for proving identity? If you cannot handle getting and maintaining an ID maybe one ought not be able to vote because you're just not responsible enough to handle it. See, this notion righ…

I don't think photo ID's are an effective certificate for proving identity. I'd like to see something stronger put into place. I would agree 100% positive identification is likely impossible given current technology but I think we can do a lot better than photo ID.

Felon's are restricted from voting and the constitutionality of it has been upheld. We can absolutely restrict who votes. I strongly disagree that such an idea is "un-American".

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#99

Post by jack-r-abbit »

MichaelSalib wrote: post #95
meddlepal wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone should have a secure, single identity card in any modern developed nation that can be used for identity verification. One card. Federal and State governments can assign privileges to the card (driving, medicare etc.). Even expand it so the card can be used to verify credit and debit card authenticity etc. That's my dream, but right now we are stuck in firmly in 20th century-modes of thinking about ID. I'm lo…

Why do we keep excusing people from having a basic mechanism to prove who they say they are? Given that bored teenagers in search of beer can easily forge IDs, what makes you think current photo ID cards are an effective certificate for proving identity? If you cannot handle getting and maintaining an ID maybe one ought not be able to vote because you're just not responsible enough to handle it. See, this notion righ…

There already is a certain set of barriers to voting, so let's not pretend there isn't. Everyone is free to vote as long as they can handle the barriers. The argument now is how much is too much. Some seem to think proper ID is too much. Others think that is perfectly reasonable. And currently, some form of ID is needed. So the debate goes further as to what is "proper" ID. Is it a state issued ID card? Or is it your water bill?

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#100

Post by MichaelSalib »

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #99
MichaelSalib wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do we keep excusing people from having a basic mechanism to prove who they say they are? Given that bored teenagers in search of beer can easily forge IDs, what makes you think current photo ID cards are an effective certificate for proving identity? If you cannot handle getting and maintaining an ID maybe one ought not be able to vote because you're just not responsible enough to handle it. See, this notion righ…

There already is a certain set of barriers to voting, so let's not pretend there isn't. Everyone is free to vote as long as they can handle the barriers. The argument now is how much is too much. Some seem to think proper ID is too much. Others think that is perfectly reasonable. And currently, some form of ID is needed. So the debate goes further as to what is "proper" ID. Is it a state issued ID card? Or is it your…

And currently, some form of ID is needed.

That's just not true. I vote without showing any ID at all.

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