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'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

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Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#81

Post by nknighthb »

smsm42 wrote: post #68
djur wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I am claiming is that the current batch of voter ID schemes are part of an organized vote suppression effort by the American right wing under the pretense of preventing fraud. I would be willing to believe that the programs were being adopted in good faith if there was any evidence of widespread voter fraud and if the programs included aggressive efforts to ensure that every eligible voter has access to a free I…

There's no evidence of widespread terror campaign in US airport and yet TSA grabs my balls each time I fly, and NSA collects my phone calls. There's no evidence of widespread harm from drugs like marijuana and yet thousands of people are jailed for mere possession of it. There's no evidence of gun bans be effective measure of crime control and yet cities like Chicago and Washington insist on it. There's no evidence R…

I am and have been an opponent of the TSA, NSA wiretaps, drug prohibition, the DMCA, SOPA, copyright extensions, and the criminalization of everyday life from their inception and/or for my entire adult life. I disagree fundamentally on the lack of evidence for gun bans.

You don't get to argue that we're wrong about this being bad just because there are other bad things out there!

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#82

Post by jack-r-abbit »

nknighthb wrote: post #73
jack-r-abbit wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Don't have one" and "can't get one" are two entirely different things. How many of them don't have one simply because they have not needed one before and will just go get one (like most people) now that they'll have a need for one? As a fairly poor college student without a car in a new state (Arizona), I managed to locate a bus schedule and a DMV and make my way to the DMV and get a state ID. And I did it without i…

http://www.in.gov/bmv/2766.htm California is not the US.

I don't disagree that CA is not the US. But neither is Indiana. What is your point? That I was wrong about California's fees? Or that I was wrong about how easy it was to get an ID in California? Or that in Indiana it is harder and more expensive to get an ID than in California?

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#83

Post by nknighthb »

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #82
nknighthb wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.in.gov/bmv/2766.htm California is not the US.

I don't disagree that CA is not the US. But neither is Indiana. What is your point? That I was wrong about California's fees? Or that I was wrong about how easy it was to get an ID in California? Or that in Indiana it is harder and more expensive to get an ID than in California?

My point is that you're not having the conversation any of the rest of us are. California is not a voter ID state, it is immaterial to the discussion.

The states with voter ID laws are also the states that make it hard to get an ID.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#84

Post by Tomte »

bananacurve wrote: post #14
toomuchtodo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue Germany is ahead democracy-wise than even our most progressive US states.

Yes. You have to register at the Police station when you move and hospitals have to report if patients are illegal aliens. Very advanced.

You usually register at the town's "citizen's office", where you can also pay for your garbage disposal, get parking passes, apply for your driver's license, have the lost+found, and so on.

Registering at the police station is something from the sixties or seventies, I think. "Police" back then had a lot more duties that are now located in other administrative offices.

But "police" is a complicated term in Germany, anyway. Legally it's not just "the guys who chase criminals".

Elsewhere it's even stranger: To me "Polizei" sounds like a friendly civilian force for order, while "Miliz" sounds paramilitary and dangerous. To Russians it seems to be different.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#85

Post by jack-r-abbit »

nknighthb wrote: post #78
jack-r-abbit wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And even those that do often have to contend with issues like name changes from marriage, or just forgetting to renew them (you usually get reminders in the mail, but we're talking about people who may not even have a fixed address). Don't we all have to contend with those things? Do minorities and the poor get some sort of free pass on these sorts of obligations? EDIT: added the parent's parenthetical comment sinc…

Clever, cutting off the parenthetical. Also clever attempting to derail. Actually, no, pretty pathetic attempt at derailing. Absolutely no one should be subject to these requirements, poor, minority, white, or rich. The fact that they disenfranchise some people is one of the reasons why.

Pathetic attempt at derailing? Not really. You talked about the millions that don't have an ID. I don't dispute that. But then you talked about all the people that DO have an ID but have to content with keeping it up to date. As if that is some burden unique to minorities and the poor. That is what I dispute. No derailment needed from me. You took it there. Your parenthetical was just you're way to justify why they get a free pass on the things others don't. It was opinion that I didn't feel needed to be quoted. But sure if you want to include it, fine. I disagree with that. You don't need to get a reminder in the mail because the ID itself very clearly states when it needs to be renewed. Rich or poor, black or white... no free passes for being forgetful.

Also, are you saying that nobody should have to keep their ID info up to date? Like no one should have to get their ID changed when they get married or move. And that no one should have to remember to get it renewed. I'm confused by that part.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#86

Post by Tomte »

nknighthb wrote: post #34
spindritf wrote: post #21

The outcry in the US over requiring someone to show an ID to vote is one of the most bizarre things to come out of that country. And, to make it even more unusual, it's coming from the left, the very people who used to love issuing IDs, numbers, and whose intellectual and ideological predecessors set up most of those schemes. Practically, as much as the anarchist in me doesn't like that, you cannot have a mass societ…

I gather you're not from the US, and are unfamiliar with our civil rights history. You can start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disfranchisement_after_the_Reco... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_Rights_Act_of_1965 Voter ID laws are simply the latest play in a long history of attempts to disenfranchise minorities and the poor. They have no other practical purpose. There is no mass vote fraud occurring in the U…

But that whole argument depends on the status quo in the US: many poor don't have ID cards already.

If you shift your view to the situation in other countries, it's easily answered: (almost) everyone has an ID card, so it cannot be used to disenfranchise minorities.

Issue ID cards to everyone and your problem should go away.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#87

Post by jack-r-abbit »

nknighthb wrote: post #83
jack-r-abbit wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree that CA is not the US. But neither is Indiana. What is your point? That I was wrong about California's fees? Or that I was wrong about how easy it was to get an ID in California? Or that in Indiana it is harder and more expensive to get an ID than in California?

My point is that you're not having the conversation any of the rest of us are. California is not a voter ID state, it is immaterial to the discussion. The states with voter ID laws are also the states that make it hard to get an ID.

Then you would have done better to just state that from the beginning. Your snarky comment with a link just came off as rude. But now I understand.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#88

Post by tzs »

zacharytelschow wrote: post #23
dragonwriter wrote: post #3

Citing the War on (selected) Drugs to justify the War on Democracy! Yay!

If that doesn't appease you, how about... Driving a car. Renting a car. Staying in a hotel room. Flying on a plane. Opening a bank account. Many, many things in life require photo ID. It's amazing how that's accepted as normal but somehow outrageous when voting is involved.

The ID requirement for renting a car or staying in a hotel is not designed to prevent people from renting cars or staying in hotels. It is to protect the rental company or the hotel from actual risks.

The recent ID laws for voting in the US are designed solely to prevent people from voting. The ID requirement are designed to require procedures and documentation that is hardest for poor people and minorities--coincidentally people who tend to not vote for the party that is pushing voter ID laws.

The proponents state it is to reduce voter fraud, but fraud based on exploiting a lack of ID requirements is close to if not nonexistent in the US.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#89

Post by hrktb »

spindritf wrote: post #21

The outcry in the US over requiring someone to show an ID to vote is one of the most bizarre things to come out of that country. And, to make it even more unusual, it's coming from the left, the very people who used to love issuing IDs, numbers, and whose intellectual and ideological predecessors set up most of those schemes. Practically, as much as the anarchist in me doesn't like that, you cannot have a mass societ…

The first step for this is to have a national ID or something equivalent (some ID universally issuable)...and it seems very very far away yet.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#90

Post by nknighthb »

Tomte wrote: post #86
nknighthb wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gather you're not from the US, and are unfamiliar with our civil rights history. You can start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disfranchisement_after_the_Reco... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_Rights_Act_of_1965 Voter ID laws are simply the latest play in a long history of attempts to disenfranchise minorities and the poor. They have no other practical purpose. There is no mass vote fraud occurring in the U…

But that whole argument depends on the status quo in the US: many poor don't have ID cards already. If you shift your view to the situation in other countries, it's easily answered: (almost) everyone has an ID card, so it cannot be used to disenfranchise minorities. Issue ID cards to everyone and your problem should go away.

That's not going to happen, and many of the people who will make sure it doesn't happen are the same people who want voter ID laws in order to disenfranchise their political opponents.

You're not just looking for a change in the status quo, you're looking for a fundamental realignment of American politics. Good luck with that.

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