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'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

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Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#31

Post by MichaelSalib »

zacharytelschow wrote: post #18
leot wrote: post #8

Any electoral fraud that relies on having bunches of people vote multiple times necessarily relies on there being a conspiracy of >100 people in order for it to be effective (this is the only kind of fraud that can be prevented by demanding that voters produce photo ID). But if a conspiracy is required, then why not address that directly? Offer a $500,000 reward and immunity to any one who provides information about…

How does vote fraud necessarily rely on a conspiracy? In many states, knowing someone's name and address is sufficient to vote as that person as long as they've previously registered. Any individual can show up at the polling place multiple times and vote as someone else and it would be very difficult to prove they'd done so.

Let's say I show up at the polling place and try to vote in someone else's name. If they've already voted, then I'm in deep trouble. In fact, my polling place often has a police officer hanging out on election day. If they haven't voted but come to vote after me, they're in deep trouble. Either way, there's going to be a big stink and a police report. Moreover, I can't vote more than once in the same precinct: I need to go elsewhere lest I'm recognized, and in most of the US, elsewhere is actually quite far away.

It really doesn't make sense spending money to prevent attacks that are completely economically infeasible.

Besides, let's say we require ID for voting. Now, everyone who illegally voted before can continue illegally voting: all they have to do is get some fake IDs, which any bored teenager looking for beer can do.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#32

Post by dragonwriter »

spindritf wrote: post #21

The outcry in the US over requiring someone to show an ID to vote is one of the most bizarre things to come out of that country. And, to make it even more unusual, it's coming from the left, the very people who used to love issuing IDs, numbers, and whose intellectual and ideological predecessors set up most of those schemes. Practically, as much as the anarchist in me doesn't like that, you cannot have a mass societ…

> The outcry in the US over requiring someone to show an ID to vote is one of the most bizarre things to come out of that country.

There's a specific historical reason for it related to practices tied to Jim Crow (and the fact that the groups backing Voter ID now mostly have no evidence of actual problems that it solves, and are often tied to other make-voting-less-convenient-and-with-more-excuses-for-outright-denial policies.)

> And, to make it even more unusual, it's coming from the left, the very people who used to love issuing IDs, numbers, and whose intellectual and ideological predecessors set up most of those schemes.

The reason its coming from what passes for "the left" (center-right instead of far right) in America is discussed above, but I don't think that this description of "the left" -- either what passes for left in America or the Left more generally -- is particularly accurate.

> Practically, as much as the anarchist in me doesn't like that, you cannot have a mass society without strong, trusted IDs so this is a lost cause.

We've had mass societies for a long time without strong, trusted IDs.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#33

Post by djur »

rlanday wrote: post #22
leot wrote: post #8

Any electoral fraud that relies on having bunches of people vote multiple times necessarily relies on there being a conspiracy of >100 people in order for it to be effective (this is the only kind of fraud that can be prevented by demanding that voters produce photo ID). But if a conspiracy is required, then why not address that directly? Offer a $500,000 reward and immunity to any one who provides information about…

I think the most common type of fraud that occurs is voting by people who are not eligible to do so (e.g., because they’re not US citizens). I don’t know on what scale this occurs, but I believe there have been documented instances. A lot of it is probably politically motivated (trying to make it easier vs. harder for lower-income, likely Democratic, voters to register), but the fear of a small number of non-citizens…

That isn't fixed by voter ID schemes, though. For an ineligible person to register to vote is voter registration fraud, and you do have to prove your eligibility to register.

Voter ID schemes only prevent people voting under other voters' names, and that kind of fraud appears to be extremely rare.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#34

Post by nknighthb »

spindritf wrote: post #21

The outcry in the US over requiring someone to show an ID to vote is one of the most bizarre things to come out of that country. And, to make it even more unusual, it's coming from the left, the very people who used to love issuing IDs, numbers, and whose intellectual and ideological predecessors set up most of those schemes. Practically, as much as the anarchist in me doesn't like that, you cannot have a mass societ…

I gather you're not from the US, and are unfamiliar with our civil rights history.

You can start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disfranchisement_after_the_Reco...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_Rights_Act_of_1965

Voter ID laws are simply the latest play in a long history of attempts to disenfranchise minorities and the poor. They have no other practical purpose. There is no mass vote fraud occurring in the US. It's another red herring, like terrorism.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#35

Post by djur »

zacharytelschow wrote: post #23
dragonwriter wrote: post #3

Citing the War on (selected) Drugs to justify the War on Democracy! Yay!

If that doesn't appease you, how about... Driving a car. Renting a car. Staying in a hotel room. Flying on a plane. Opening a bank account. Many, many things in life require photo ID. It's amazing how that's accepted as normal but somehow outrageous when voting is involved.

None of those things are fundamental elements of democracy. Voting is.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#36

Post by spindritf »

djur wrote: post #27
spindritf wrote: post #21

The outcry in the US over requiring someone to show an ID to vote is one of the most bizarre things to come out of that country. And, to make it even more unusual, it's coming from the left, the very people who used to love issuing IDs, numbers, and whose intellectual and ideological predecessors set up most of those schemes. Practically, as much as the anarchist in me doesn't like that, you cannot have a mass societ…

The American left is opposed to voter ID because it's a vote suppression scheme -- not all eligible voters have IDs or have access to obtain them. The voter ID bills have gone hand-in-hand with restrictions on early voting and same-day voter registration, which makes the intention clear. On the other hand, I have yet to see one of these bills accompanied by legislation intended to help people without IDs get them.

I have yet to see one of these bills accompanied by legislation intended to help people without IDs get them.

I have just googled it and, apparently, it's a constitutional requirement to issue IDs at no cost if they're required to vote. Arkansas for example is waiting with the implementation of their voting ID law precisely for that reason.

The new law won't take effect until January or when funding is available for the state to provide free photo IDs required under the law, whichever is later.

http://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2013/jun/19/panel-reviewi...

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#37

Post by qdog »

zacharytelschow wrote: post #18
leot wrote: post #8

Any electoral fraud that relies on having bunches of people vote multiple times necessarily relies on there being a conspiracy of >100 people in order for it to be effective (this is the only kind of fraud that can be prevented by demanding that voters produce photo ID). But if a conspiracy is required, then why not address that directly? Offer a $500,000 reward and immunity to any one who provides information about…

How does vote fraud necessarily rely on a conspiracy? In many states, knowing someone's name and address is sufficient to vote as that person as long as they've previously registered. Any individual can show up at the polling place multiple times and vote as someone else and it would be very difficult to prove they'd done so.

Most polling places are staffed by locals and will often recognize someone trying to commit fraud. If the person who you are trying to impersonate also votes, it will also trigger an event. Worst case you show up to vote after someone has already voted, you trigger this event and get busted.

Theoretically the only people you could safely impersonate would be dead and un-likely to be known to the pollster. Even if you found that, how many times could you vote? You'd risk someone recognizing you the second time, so you'd have to try and visit multiple polling places.

The most likely place for fraud to occur would be after the vote takes place: either in the counting system, or tampering with the votes. There is not much chance of changing enough votes simple by showing up and casting a physical ballot, unless you have a high enough number of people doing it (and somehow not getting caught and triggering an investigation).

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#38

Post by Casseres »

MichaelSalib wrote: post #31
zacharytelschow wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does vote fraud necessarily rely on a conspiracy? In many states, knowing someone's name and address is sufficient to vote as that person as long as they've previously registered. Any individual can show up at the polling place multiple times and vote as someone else and it would be very difficult to prove they'd done so.

Let's say I show up at the polling place and try to vote in someone else's name. If they've already voted, then I'm in deep trouble. In fact, my polling place often has a police officer hanging out on election day. If they haven't voted but come to vote after me, they're in deep trouble. Either way, there's going to be a big stink and a police report. Moreover, I can't vote more than once in the same precinct: I need…

Every place I've been to vote, the election workers had a printed list of people who could vote and would highlight their names once they voted. It's in plain view and it would be easy to read the names and find one to use while waiting in line to get your ballet.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#39

Post by gertef »

spindritf wrote: post #21

The outcry in the US over requiring someone to show an ID to vote is one of the most bizarre things to come out of that country. And, to make it even more unusual, it's coming from the left, the very people who used to love issuing IDs, numbers, and whose intellectual and ideological predecessors set up most of those schemes. Practically, as much as the anarchist in me doesn't like that, you cannot have a mass societ…

Hint: The world makes more sense when you stop trying to force it into a "left vs right" model.

Re: 'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

#40

Post by nknighthb »

spindritf wrote: post #36
djur wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American left is opposed to voter ID because it's a vote suppression scheme -- not all eligible voters have IDs or have access to obtain them. The voter ID bills have gone hand-in-hand with restrictions on early voting and same-day voter registration, which makes the intention clear. On the other hand, I have yet to see one of these bills accompanied by legislation intended to help people without IDs get them.

I have yet to see one of these bills accompanied by legislation intended to help people without IDs get them. I have just googled it and, apparently, it's a constitutional requirement to issue IDs at no cost if they're required to vote. Arkansas for example is waiting with the implementation of their voting ID law precisely for that reason. The new law won't take effect until January or when funding is available for…

I invite you to try and get one of those free IDs, which are often accompanied by a demand for documentation that, again, the underprivileged are likely to have trouble getting, if it even exists. This is assuming the DMV office doesn't play dumb and deny any knowledge of their obligations.

There is a distinction between constitutional requirements and what happens in practice. I don't know where you're from, maybe there is stricter enforcement of rights there, but here in the US, on the ground, rights are regularly violated with impunity by local officials.

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