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ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

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Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#61

Post by hfsktr »

dm2 wrote: post #18

Moral of the story? Police and federal agents must be more transparent and accountable for their actions and expenditures. The whole concept of "spend money so that our budget doesn't shrink next year" has go to be fixed also. I don't know a solution other than having more auditors and efficiency experts (GAO, gao.gov). Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tra…

"...if you purchase a gun without a license..."

Isn't that by state? Can't private parties sell guns to each other and not even have to report it to anyone in some states?

Other than someone reporting a crime (theft of the gun or violence etc) the tracking would only serve to tell you where someone keeps their gun. You'll have to forgive my skepticism that needing a warrant would be a huge barrier.

That said I haven't read the article yet so maybe there is something that changes how I see this comment.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#62

Post by mr_luc »

daeken wrote: post #53
derekp7 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've thought about a way to have a for-profit prison system that would work better. First, give the convict the right to choose which prison to go to (possibly with a particular security category). Then they (the prisons) would have to compete based on how the prisoners are treated. Now, after the prisoner is released, if he reoffends, then the prison that he "attended" would have to foot the bill for the additional…

Interesting idea. Many crimes are committed due to a lack of options caused by poverty (theft most directly, but many other crimes are correlated strongly with poverty levels), so if a prison has to pay if a released prisoner re-offends, perhaps it's in the best interest of the prison to pay directly to the ex-prisoner, to get them on their feet. Give them a place to live, food budget, whatever. Probably still cheape…

Yeah, some kind of outcomes-based incentives for the prisons seems like a good idea -- it would have to be fairly small, though, to avoid gaming. See that case this past year where a judge (in PA, I think?) had a corrupt relationship with a private prison and sent thousands of people there for minor offenses.

I'd love to see "Private Prison" phased out in favor of "Rehabilitation Contractor." But it would require legislation be crafted in favor of extremely careful balancing of incentives, in the teeth of pressure from the powerful private prison lobby to turn the whole thing into either a NOOP or a private prison subsidy.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#63

Post by Crito »

wl wrote: post #54
cschneid wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tracker? Ohh god yes, they would. I live in Colorado, and 2 of our state reps got recalled when the democrats limited clip size to 15, and required more background checks on purchase. That restriction got people so angry that they did mid-term recalls. Not even just waiting till next election.

FYI, using the term "clip" in this way is common but incorrect. Colorado limited the size of magazines to 15 rounds. Magazines hold ammunition in a way that a gun can pull a round from it when the action cycles. Clips are a specific kind of device for loading some types of magazines.

If we are being pedantic, then the issue becomes fairly fuzzed when you consider guns that have you insert the clip, not just the ammunition, into a fixed magazine. The M1 Garand for example.

I don't know of any examples of guns with this sort of setup that would get anywhere near 15 rounds, but I suspect that the M1 specifically has something to do with the common misuse of terminology. It may also be related to some of the loonier misconceptions about guns, such as the idea that "clips" (actually magazines) are disposable (and therefore somehow also not reusable) (example of this misconception: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_DeGette#Gun_control).

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#64

Post by talmand »

cgore wrote: post #59
pionar wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tracker? As a gun control advocate who also owns guns, yes, I would flip the f * out. While I have no problem if the government knows I own a gun (they know I own a car), Putting a GPS tracker on it would result in two things: 1. The government would know where I am at all times (I carry my Kahr CM-9 everywhere that allow…

The problem with gun registration versus car registration is that there is no real use to having a list of car owners, other than legitimate ones. But, a list of people with weapons would be the first thing any would-be dictator would love to have. I realize I am inviting the wrath of Godwin's Law here, but, as a real-world historical example of the threat of gun registration, the Nazis: "In 1931, Weimar authorities…

Oh, people down voting because of Godwin's law? Fine...

Armenians in Ottoman Turkey, Anti-Communists/Stalinists in Soviet Union, Anti-Communists in China, Mayan Indians in Guatemala, Christians in Uganda, General Population in Cambodia

There are lots of examples of gun confiscations preceding mass murders. Not that every gun confiscations lead to mass murder since there are examples of that not happening. But to ignore the possibilities in some areas of the world is just being naive.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#65

Post by beat »

cgore wrote: post #59
pionar wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tracker? As a gun control advocate who also owns guns, yes, I would flip the f * out. While I have no problem if the government knows I own a gun (they know I own a car), Putting a GPS tracker on it would result in two things: 1. The government would know where I am at all times (I carry my Kahr CM-9 everywhere that allow…

The problem with gun registration versus car registration is that there is no real use to having a list of car owners, other than legitimate ones. But, a list of people with weapons would be the first thing any would-be dictator would love to have. I realize I am inviting the wrath of Godwin's Law here, but, as a real-world historical example of the threat of gun registration, the Nazis: "In 1931, Weimar authorities…

Godwin's Law exists for a reason, man.

(signed, a pro-gun liberal who loathes your bad line of reasoning)

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#66

Post by bambax »

dm2 wrote: post #18

Moral of the story? Police and federal agents must be more transparent and accountable for their actions and expenditures. The whole concept of "spend money so that our budget doesn't shrink next year" has go to be fixed also. I don't know a solution other than having more auditors and efficiency experts (GAO, gao.gov). Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tra…

> On the other hand, if you purchase a gun without a license or attempt to hire a contract killer and it turns out to be a police officer you are in contact with, then that sting just save a life, which is good.

How do you know that? How do you know the whole thing wasn't completely created by the police, enticing unstable individuals to do things they would never have done without their help?

Stings are not just "slightly unfair", they are fake and immoral and the people who carry them out are despicable (as this story shows).

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#67

Post by talmand »

hfsktr wrote: post #61
dm2 wrote: post #18

Moral of the story? Police and federal agents must be more transparent and accountable for their actions and expenditures. The whole concept of "spend money so that our budget doesn't shrink next year" has go to be fixed also. I don't know a solution other than having more auditors and efficiency experts (GAO, gao.gov). Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tra…

"...if you purchase a gun without a license..." Isn't that by state? Can't private parties sell guns to each other and not even have to report it to anyone in some states? Other than someone reporting a crime (theft of the gun or violence etc) the tracking would only serve to tell you where someone keeps their gun. You'll have to forgive my skepticism that needing a warrant would be a huge barrier. That said I haven'…

That's true, the rules of private sales can vary from state to state.

But it is absolutely in your best interest to record the details of a private gun sale for your own protection. If you purchased the gun at a licensed shop then your name is on record with the Federal government (US) for purchasing that weapon. If the gun turns up at a crime scene then you will most likely be getting a knock on your door at some point. Hopefully it's a friendly knock but you never know with the police these days wanting to show off their breaching skills.

In fact, I would never do a private sale of a gun, I would do so through a licensed dealer so that the same checks done to me would be done to the new owner.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#68

Post by grey-area »

JHSheridan wrote: post #13
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Size is irrelevant. When you declare your mission is a 'war on drugs' you're going to end up losing, plain and simple. Meanwhile, very, very large government programs like the NHS do well and provide healthcare to millions in an affordable way with great outcomes. There's something very lazy about arguing about government size. Its just dumb simpleminded platitudes that libertarians pat each other on the back for, bu…

> Meanwhile, very, very large government programs like the NHS do well and provide healthcare to millions in an affordable way with great outcomes. Isn't NHS facing bankruptcy?

No, it is not. How does a government funded org ever face bankruptcy, unless the government wants it to for political reasons? The NHS provides healthcare to the entire nation for about 7% of GDP. If there's any question of bankruptcy there are plenty of other areas to look at first.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#69

Post by koenigdavidmj »

dm2 wrote: post #56
cschneid wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tracker? Ohh god yes, they would. I live in Colorado, and 2 of our state reps got recalled when the democrats limited clip size to 15, and required more background checks on purchase. That restriction got people so angry that they did mid-term recalls. Not even just waiting till next election.

Why would anyone be against that? Both of those things seem perfectly reasonable. I'm sure there would be a provision for a type of license that would allow a larger magazine if you had a valid reason and very clean record. If you live on a large farm and like to shoot for fun, then maybe a larger magazine would be acceptable. If you live in an apartment in a city, then you don't reasonably need extremely large magaz…

Soon fifteen is going to be an insufficiently low limit. Yes, slippery slope is generally a fallacy, but...it actually is happening. In Colorado, your "reasonable" magazine size limit is fifteen. In New York, it's ten in a pistol and five in a rifle, and you can only load seven rounds in the ten round magazine. California was a governor's veto away from banning all semi-automatic rifles with detachable magazines.

I also have yet to see a reason why these shouldn't apply equally to the police. If large capacity magazines only exist to kill people as quickly as possible, then why should the police have that? How many times are they going to encounter enough armed belligerents for the capacity to matter?

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#70

Post by bandushrew »

pionar wrote: post #24
dm2 wrote: post #18

Moral of the story? Police and federal agents must be more transparent and accountable for their actions and expenditures. The whole concept of "spend money so that our budget doesn't shrink next year" has go to be fixed also. I don't know a solution other than having more auditors and efficiency experts (GAO, gao.gov). Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tra…

> Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tracker? As a gun control advocate who also owns guns, yes, I would flip the f * out. While I have no problem if the government knows I own a gun (they know I own a car), Putting a GPS tracker on it would result in two things: 1. The government would know where I am at all times (I carry my Kahr CM-9 everywhere that allow…

if you carry a cellphone, the government does know where you are at all times. this is now established fact.

why do you care so much more when the discussion is around guns?

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