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About Python 3

alexgaynor.net

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Re: About Python 3

#151

Post by bonemachine »

wiremine wrote: post #58
ak217 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perl 6 is vaporware. Python 3 is here, it's widely supported, it's faster than Python 2.7, and while Guido didn't do us any favors with his migration strategy, I don't see what the big deal is. Python 3.3 makes writing code that is compatible with both almost trivial. People aren't using Python 3 enough because it's not the default in Debian/Ubuntu. That's about to change with Ubuntu 14.04. I expect that to tip the s…

> Perl 6 is vaporware Perl 6 is not vaporware, you can run it today: http://perl6.org/compilers/features Is it 100% feature complete or fast? No. But there working code and new, stable releases on a monthly basis.

Being able to "run" it, and the fact that it has a release cycle doesn't mean it's a viable development platform.

Re: About Python 3

#152

Post by UNIXgod »

steveklabnik wrote: post #43
themgt wrote: post #33

It's fascinating to compare this with ruby 1.9, released around the same time, but seemingly with a slightly better cost/benefit ratio, having nice new features and also significantly improved performance, and with ruby 1.8 being deprecated with a lot more speed and force. It got everyone to actually make the switch, and then ruby 2.0 came along, largely compatible and with a more improvements, and now ruby 2.1 seems…

Matz has also said no breaking changes until ruby 3.0, which is 'ten years away.' I don't expect this to actually be true, but it speaks to an attitude.

If he said it I believe it. I don't worry so much about Matz and the Ruby core committers breaking things.

Re: About Python 3

#153

Post by mangeletti »

Ironically, I just started my first ever (Django) web app that is built for Python 3 only. I learned Python right after the release of Python 3, and so i learned everything with Python 3 in mind. For instance, I don't think I've ever used print as a statement. I even used string.format for heaven's sake, until I learned that there was little chance of the interpolation syntax going away.

Annnnyway... I am JUST not writing my first Python 3 application, and I have just installed (on OS X) Python 3 for the first time since 2009 (only as an experiment at that point).

Create a virtualenv and tell it to use Python 3 via `-p /path/to/python3`, update your .gitignore to include __pycache__ directories, don't write any code that uses features or syntax that was removed in Python 3 (since they added u'' support to Python 3, most devs I know are already doing this part), and you're literally off to the races. My app's requirements.txt has django==1.6.1, pytz==2013.8, South==0.8.4, django-debug-toolbar==1.0 (just released, btw), and ipython (obviously just for shell support). It works perfectly, and of course mock is included in Python 3, so you don't need that anymore. There was one caveat though :( Fabric doesn't work, because Parimiko is too deep a web to quickly update to run on Python 3.

tl;dr

I think Alex wrote this article too late. I think with Django finally having a release that fully supports (not experimentally like version 1.5) Python 3, a lot of libs supporting Python 3, and a lot of updates to Python 3 in the past year or so, we'll probably see quite a few new apps being built for Python 3 in the next year.

Re: About Python 3

#154

Post by mangeletti »

mangeletti wrote: post #153

Ironically, I just started my first ever (Django) web app that is built for Python 3 only. I learned Python right after the release of Python 3, and so i learned everything with Python 3 in mind. For instance, I don't think I've ever used print as a statement. I even used string.format for heaven's sake, until I learned that there was little chance of the interpolation syntax going away. Annnnyway... I am JUST not wr…

oops, i meant "just now" rather than "just not", which would basically ruin the entire context of my comment... what an unfortunate typo :)

Re: About Python 3

#155

Post by trembo »

Ixiaus wrote: post #93
thezilch wrote: post #31

It wasn't until 3.3 that py3 was really palatable. Easier to support unicode running the same codebase in py2 and py3. yield from -- look, a py3 feature worth porting for! 3.3 was released in late 2012, and so, we can probably shift this "5 year" expectation to start from there. In fact, it's 3.4 that really starts to wet the beak with asyncio and enum. I'm not sure 2.8 needs to happen, if 3.x simply, and finally, ha…

This. While there are many wonderful features in Py3 (I use it 100% in production at work) it still needs a killer feature to really inspire people to move over. Python's lack of solid asynchronous I/O is definitely one of those features I think.

>This.

Samefag detected. Go back to 4chan, faggot.

Re: About Python 3

#156

Post by thatthatis »

I'm going to go against the grain here and say that moving slowly is one of my absolute favorite features about python and its libraries.

Rails and django were released about the same time, rails is on version 4, django is on 1.6.

Moving slowly means I can spend more of my time writing code and less of my time upgrading old code. More importantly, every release requires a perusal: did the API change, what's new, are there breaking changes I need to be aware of?

I didn't appreciate how nice a slow but consistent and deliberate release cycle was until I started using Ember which seems to release a new version monthly.

Its generally acceptable to be one or two x.x versions back, but much more than that and the cost of maintaining libraries skyrockets, so you start losing bug fixes and library compatibility.

With python there's not really a question of if I can run my code for a year between non-security upgrades, even with a few dozen third party libraries. That stability is immensely valuable.

Re: About Python 3

#157

Post by huxley »

martincho wrote: post #94

What is needed is a very high quality Python 2.x to 3.x migration or conversion tool to make library conversions trivial. If developers knew they could convert any 2.x code to 3.x code with no effort at all and with absolute certainty of proper operation they would probably migrate to the latest 3.x release en-masse. How difficult would something like this be? This might be really naive on my part. I haven't really t…

You may want to look instead at six which let's you write code that works with both py2 and py3: http://pythonhosted.org/six/

Re: About Python 3

#158

Post by jrochkind1 »

Meanwhile, in Railslandia, the annoyance is how much time you have to spend updating your old apps that rely on ruby versions or other dependencies that are no longer supported.

I'm annoyed that it's looking like ruby 1.9.3 will be end-of-lifed sometime this spring, and I'm going to have to go and deal with updating a bunch of apps to ruby 2.0 or 2.1; it seems like it was just yesterday I had to spend way too much annoying time updating them all to 1.9.3 in the first place when 1.8.7 was EOL'd.

And don't get me wrong, 1.9.3 is _so_ much better than 1.8; and the update to 2.x will hopefully be not so bad, but it's still time I'm spending on the treadmill instead of new features.

Is there any path between the continual forced march of updates of ruby, and the lack of urgency so nobody ever upgrades of python?

Re: About Python 3

#159

Post by baq »

keyme wrote: post #147
agentultra wrote: post #39

I like Python 3. I prefer it. It is better to program in than 2.x. Iterators everywhere, no more unicode/encoding vagueness, sub-generators and more. It is a much better language and it's hard to see how it could have evolved without a clean break from its roots. However it has been interesting to follow over the last five years. It has been a sort of, "what if p5 broke the CPAN," scenario played out in real-life. Br…

I don't like Python 3. Iterators everywhere are incredibly annoying, especially with my development workflow, where I don't put a line of code into a file before I run it manually in the interpreter. When I run a map over a list, I just want to see the freaking results. Default unicode strings are obscenely annoying to me. Almost all of my code deals with binary data, parsing complex data structures, etc. The only "h…

this post is a great example of why python 3 didn't go far enough. it's too close to python 2 to be still called python and too far from python 2 to be still called python 2.

personally, coming from a country that needs to deal with non-ascii, i love unicode by default and there are b'' strings if you need them. str.encode is a non-issue - you wasted more words on it than the two-line function enc() it takes to fix it.

Re: About Python 3

#160

Post by SimHacker »

wiremine wrote: post #58
ak217 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perl 6 is vaporware. Python 3 is here, it's widely supported, it's faster than Python 2.7, and while Guido didn't do us any favors with his migration strategy, I don't see what the big deal is. Python 3.3 makes writing code that is compatible with both almost trivial. People aren't using Python 3 enough because it's not the default in Debian/Ubuntu. That's about to change with Ubuntu 14.04. I expect that to tip the s…

> Perl 6 is vaporware Perl 6 is not vaporware, you can run it today: http://perl6.org/compilers/features Is it 100% feature complete or fast? No. But there working code and new, stable releases on a monthly basis.

Perl 6 and Duke Nukem Forever are the geriatric poster children of vaporware, and always will be, even after they finally shipped. Being able to pick up a turd floating in a urinal does not in any way deliver on all the broken promises, rehabilitate the ruined reputation, or make up for all the blustering hype that was spewed for so many years about how superior Duke Nukem Forever's gameplay would be to all the other games that were already on the market. The damage was done a long time ago, and can never be undone. And Perl 6 is perfectly analogous to Duke Nukem Forever. Fortunately, nobody ever made such ridiculous claims about Python 3 as were made about Duke Nukem Forever and Perl 6.
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