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ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

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Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#11

Post by Crito »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #8
mortyseinfeld wrote: post #3

This is what you get when people keep on voting in big government types all in the name of safety, security and social justice.

Size is irrelevant. When you declare your mission is a 'war on drugs' you're going to end up losing, plain and simple. Meanwhile, very, very large government programs like the NHS do well and provide healthcare to millions in an affordable way with great outcomes. There's something very lazy about arguing about government size. Its just dumb simpleminded platitudes that libertarians pat each other on the back for, bu…

> Size is irrelevant. When you declare your mission is a 'war on drugs' you're going to end up losing, plain and simple.

While size may not itself be damaging, size does correlate with collateral damage when a losing strategy (such as 'war on drugs') is chosen. The larger the DEA/ATF are, the more people that they can hurt.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#12

Post by logfromblammo »

Cue the libertarian versus non-libertarian mudwrestling.

It has become increasingly clear to me that the ills of the U.S. pogroms against some recreational drugs are due in no small part to the conversion of the criminal justice system to a for-profit industry. As long as the jobs and budgets are tied to the number of criminals processed rather than the peace and order produced, cop cadres will titrate the frequency and severity of their enforcement actions with the aim to ensure for themselves steady jobs and pensions.

There is a positive feedback loop in there somewhere that must be broken before it destroys the concept of justice completely.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#13

Post by JHSheridan »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #8
mortyseinfeld wrote: post #3

This is what you get when people keep on voting in big government types all in the name of safety, security and social justice.

Size is irrelevant. When you declare your mission is a 'war on drugs' you're going to end up losing, plain and simple. Meanwhile, very, very large government programs like the NHS do well and provide healthcare to millions in an affordable way with great outcomes. There's something very lazy about arguing about government size. Its just dumb simpleminded platitudes that libertarians pat each other on the back for, bu…

> Meanwhile, very, very large government programs like the NHS do well and provide healthcare to millions in an affordable way with great outcomes.

Isn't NHS facing bankruptcy?

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#15

Post by hyperpape »

w1ntermute wrote: post #7
hyperpape wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't conflate things that are different. The libertarian two axis view of politics is still far too simple, but it's a start: plenty of people who rail against "big government" support the drug war, while plenty of people who like redistribution are adamantly against it.* As long as you don't get that point, you're working with a seriously limited view of politics. * If you really want to blow your mind, there are p…

> plenty of people who rail against "big government" support the drug war, while plenty of people who like redistribution are adamantly against it.* Because no one actually cares about "big" or "small" government, they care about using the government to impose their beliefs on other people, whether those beliefs are conservative or liberal in nature. Both liberals and conservatives are actually for "big government",…

You can say that, but then you have to own up to the fact that the two dimensions of "bigness" are unrelated. The drug war and medicare/social security (to take two other big programs) are good or bad for entirely separate reasons.

The fact is, when you say you want the government to be small, you are conflating things that there are different. There are different ways to be big or small, and they have different advantages and disadvantages.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#17

Post by dm2 »

mortyseinfeld wrote: post #3

This is what you get when people keep on voting in big government types all in the name of safety, security and social justice.

There is nothing wrong with a large government as long as you can ensure that it is transparent and truly working for it's citizens.

As soon as governments start abusing their power to help big business and for public officials personal agendas, then you have corruption and it is detrimental to that country and society.

How could you have safety, security, and social justice WITHOUT a large government? There are 300 million people in this country, a good percentage are poor, a large percentage don't have great morals, and a transparent and strong government seems like the only way to combat that.

Yes, a small government MIGHT work in a country that is unified and that has near 100% national loyalty, but the US does not. The US is very diversified, has a huge population, has tons of people who were raised to be greedy, and social conflicts are almost normal. A small government (near anarchy) is not the answer, in my humble opinion.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#18

Post by dm2 »

Moral of the story? Police and federal agents must be more transparent and accountable for their actions and expenditures.

The whole concept of "spend money so that our budget doesn't shrink next year" has go to be fixed also. I don't know a solution other than having more auditors and efficiency experts (GAO, gao.gov).

Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tracker? Just an idea, I know it wouldn't fix all gun problems, but it might be prevent some gun thefts and murders. Of course, this data shouldn't be able to be accessed without a warrant.

Stings are slightly unfair and can sometimes catch dumb people who wouldn't otherwise commit the crime. On the other hand, if you purchase a gun without a license or attempt to hire a contract killer and it turns out to be a police officer you are in contact with, then that sting just save a life, which is good.

Preventing abuses of power is key. There should be adequate training at organizations on how and where to report abuses of power or potentially unethical behavior. Most of this is already in place, obviously more resources and oversight is needed constantly to ensure that the police are protecting citizens and not entrapping them or abusing their power for career advancement.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#19

Post by w1ntermute »

hyperpape wrote: post #15
w1ntermute wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> plenty of people who rail against "big government" support the drug war, while plenty of people who like redistribution are adamantly against it.* Because no one actually cares about "big" or "small" government, they care about using the government to impose their beliefs on other people, whether those beliefs are conservative or liberal in nature. Both liberals and conservatives are actually for "big government",…

You can say that, but then you have to own up to the fact that the two dimensions of "bigness" are unrelated. The drug war and medicare/social security (to take two other big programs) are good or bad for entirely separate reasons. The fact is, when you say you want the government to be small, you are conflating things that there are different. There are different ways to be big or small, and they have different adva…

> you have to own up to the fact that the two dimensions of "bigness" are unrelated

You're mistaken - they have much in common. In order to be a successful political party, what you have to do is find issues that (a) a lot of people deeply believe in on an emotional level and (b) can be addressed in such a way that you can redirect large sums of money into the pockets of 3rd parties in the process, who will then support the election campaigns of your politicians.

Whether this happens through providing obscenely overpriced healthcare to Americans or through buying/using drones to extrajudicially murder and terrorize Yemeni wedding-goers is just a detail. We could debate until the end of time how much value either of these initiatives actually provides to the American citizenry, but that's a completely separate issue (and not one that the vast majority of politicians give a rat's ass about).

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#20

Post by jonnathanson »

viraptor wrote: post #9

So what they're doing in general goes in the direction completely opposite to what the broken windows theory would suggest... It seems really weird to me - it's one thing to try to be friendly with someone who's already planning a crime and something completely different when you're providing both incentive and funding for new crime (pawn shops).

I'm surprised nobody's gone after them for entrapment. IANAL, but my understanding is that the definition of entrapment is inducing someone to commit a crime that he wouldn't have been likely to commit otherwise. In the case of convincing a mentally disabled teenager to run drugs and guns, the shoe seems to fit.
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