Report: NSA intercepting laptops ordered online, installing spyware • Hacker News Board

Re: Report: NSA intercepting laptops ordered online, installing spyware

#21

Post by userbinator » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 6:27 AM UTC

harshreality wrote: post #19

sillysaurus2 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably one of the most important problems of our generation to solve (as hackers, not philanthropists) and it's sort of amazing that it's hardly known, let alone discussed. I've brought it up before and it seems like everyone's reaction is that it's not worth worrying about. But there are adversaries besides the NSA, such as malware. And since userspace programs can upgrade your BIOS, then therefore it's po…

Can the bios chips/eeproms be replaced on a running computer? Can you remove the bios chip, put it in a different (running) computer, use flashrom to read it, put it back, use flashrom to read it again, and compare the two? Either the virus doesn't hide itself (on calls to read from the bios nvram), and it will be visible on comparison with a pristine (if you have one) copy of the same bios, or it does hide itself an…

Yes, this used to be how you flashed a BIOS for a bricked motherboard, when BIOS chips used to be socketed: boot the good board, pull the BIOS chip (while it's running), put the bad/blank one in the socket, and flash, then power everything off again and put the good one back.

Re: Report: NSA intercepting laptops ordered online, installing spyware

#22

Post by whyenot » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 6:28 AM UTC

This is starting to get really bad. Why aren't there demonstrations in the streets? I tried to sound out my relatives over the holidays to see what they think about Snowden/NSA and nobody seems to care.

Re: Report: NSA intercepting laptops ordered online, installing spyware

#23

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 6:28 AM UTC

geuis wrote: post #14

My suspension of disbelief is getting really close to breaking. Don't get me wrong, I'm fully against the entire NSA spying deal. But these "reports" just keep getting more and more outrageous. The problem is not that I don't think these things have been happening, but rather that the continuous slow leaking by news media is causing the next big reveal to be just more background noise. We need a big, sudden, destruct…

[deleted]

Re: Report: NSA intercepting laptops ordered online, installing spyware

#24

Post by userbinator » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 6:29 AM UTC

sillysaurus2 wrote: post #10

mgurlitz wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linked article on Der Spiegel has a section on what they call "persistence:" The specialists at ANT, which presumably stands for Advanced or Access Network Technology, could be described as master carpenters for the NSA's department for Tailored Access Operations (TAO)... The ANT developers have a clear preference for planting their malicious code in so-called BIOS, software located on a computer's motherboard th…

This is probably one of the most important problems of our generation to solve (as hackers, not philanthropists) and it's sort of amazing that it's hardly known, let alone discussed. I've brought it up before and it seems like everyone's reaction is that it's not worth worrying about. But there are adversaries besides the NSA, such as malware. And since userspace programs can upgrade your BIOS, then therefore it's po…

> Or at least an open source BIOS.

http://www.coreboot.org/

I remember when most motherboards would have a physical BIOS write-protect switch, which would've prevented all software from modifying it. These days it's been eliminated from most if not all, for reasons of cost and "but it'll require the user to open the case to upgrade the BIOS!" -- and apparently, the automatic updating software for some laptops will update the BIOS in the background without warning, which is even more disturbing to me...

Re: Report: NSA intercepting laptops ordered online, installing spyware

#25

Post by kevingadd » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 6:30 AM UTC

Yver wrote: post #17

And suddenly, people like Richman Stallman seem much less crazy when they ask for free (as in libre ) hardware, free BIOS, free everything.

Is 'free as in libre' hardware really any protection if the NSA intercepted your device at the border and planted undetectable MITM malware/hardware? Are you really gonna take the whole thing apart and check every chip for modifications?

Re: Report: NSA intercepting laptops ordered online, installing spyware

#26

Post by whyenot » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 6:31 AM UTC

Yver wrote: post #17

And suddenly, people like Richman Stallman seem much less crazy when they ask for free (as in libre ) hardware, free BIOS, free everything.

After sitting through an embarrassingly awkward 2 1/2 hr talk by Richard Stallman at SJSU last month, I think he actually is a little... off. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't take his message to heart.

Re: Report: NSA intercepting laptops ordered online, installing spyware

#27

Post by bdamm » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 6:32 AM UTC

Yver wrote: post #17

And suddenly, people like Richman Stallman seem much less crazy when they ask for free (as in libre ) hardware, free BIOS, free everything.

You know, I'd actually be less outraged if the NSA's backdoors weren't so damn buggy.

Re: Report: NSA intercepting laptops ordered online, installing spyware

#28

Post by Houshalter » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 6:34 AM UTC

kapitalx wrote: post #16

geuis wrote: post #14

My suspension of disbelief is getting really close to breaking. Don't get me wrong, I'm fully against the entire NSA spying deal. But these "reports" just keep getting more and more outrageous. The problem is not that I don't think these things have been happening, but rather that the continuous slow leaking by news media is causing the next big reveal to be just more background noise. We need a big, sudden, destruct…

IMHO the only reason the NSA leaks have been so effective in shaping public opinion is that it's a 'slow drizzle'. Otherwise they would have ended up like other wikileak mass dumps which are too overwhelming to absorb and are quickly forgotten.

It seems kind of silly that something has to literally be "new news" in order to be worth broadcasting or discussing, even if it hasn't before.

Re: Report: NSA intercepting laptops ordered online, installing spyware

#29

Post by rdl » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 6:34 AM UTC

geuis wrote: post #14

My suspension of disbelief is getting really close to breaking. Don't get me wrong, I'm fully against the entire NSA spying deal. But these "reports" just keep getting more and more outrageous. The problem is not that I don't think these things have been happening, but rather that the continuous slow leaking by news media is causing the next big reveal to be just more background noise. We need a big, sudden, destruct…

I don't think this operation is very unreasonable if highly targeted. If they did this to computers bought by Iran's nuclear program, or known watched mid level jihadis , the only problem I'd have would be I don't have enough money to buy an open bar for everyone involved. No one is arguing this was pervasive.

The dangerous area IMO would be domestic law enforcement or political use (well , not so gray), and attacking innocent third parties with this to gain access to systems to attack actual bad guys. ( eg Belgacom)

Re: Report: NSA intercepting laptops ordered online, installing spyware

#30

Post by aegiso » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 6:36 AM UTC

Yver wrote: post #17

And suddenly, people like Richman Stallman seem much less crazy when they ask for free (as in libre ) hardware, free BIOS, free everything.

Because the GPL is the best defense against an adversary that gets to redefine laws as they see fit?

I'm all for FLOSSing all the things, but it wouldn't help one bit here.