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I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

theguardian.com

401–410 of 491 posts

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saudi funded religious schools are a key formenter of anti-American Islamist sentiment around the world. Forget drones, their actions warrant larger-scale military action.

Just so I know I'm not misunderstanding: the fact that they fund religious schools alone justifies bombings, invasions, etc.? We're through the looking glass here, people.

No, the fact that they fund religious schools that teach virulently anti-western sentiment is an attack on our national interest and justifies military action.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you so much for reminding me that I should care about not being manipulated. Your comment is so full of really good unbiased views that I just wanted to tell you how much non-manipulated I felt by your comment. I especially enjoyed your notion that the Guardian is "serving up an emotional, unsubstantiated, one sided view of this discussion." You are so right. I always fell that the White House and the American…

Hey Avenger123. "I especially enjoyed your notion that the Guardian is "serving up an emotional, unsubstantiated, one sided view of this discussion." You are so right. I always fell that the White House and the American military are always providing really insightful information that is really backed up substantiated by information." Two thoughts there. It feels like you're arguing "two wrongs make a right" And secon…

That really reads like the journalistic "View from Nowhere".

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#403
post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And as an American I do live with a particular type of fear, which is that of the DEA and SWAT team escalations. I disagree that this is something to be all that worried about. It detracts from the rest of your argument.

The Bombay terrorist bombings are indeed -- like so many terrorist attacks -- a false-flag operation, organized by the United States' intelligence services.

And we are ruled by space lizards.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#404
post #366

The only thing this shows is that the recruiting standards for the US drone program are substandard, as the author was allegedly part. 1) Yes, absolutely UAV based jammers don't block all IEDs. Ground jammers like WARLOCK also don't block all IEDs. One thing they did do was force a lot of command detonated IEDs to go to command wire systems, instead of various wireless systems, which meant we then had a man with a sw…

According to someone familiar with current specops / USAF rules-of-engagement, the rule is that an officer always had to be present to authorize a kill by a UAV. Period. If JSOC or others were/are doing something different, this could be grounds for court-martial.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you describe is an incredibly difficult and completely unsolved problem. While I agree with the sentiment , I disagree with talking about it as if it were something you could just decide to do one day, and then it would get done. I would love to see more effort put into making peace. But making peace isn't simply a matter of declaring that you will "make peace, not war".

>But making peace isn't simply a matter of declaring that you will "make peace, not war". Yes it is. Because the same is true of war: you have to decide to do it. The problem is, the American people have subjugated all their decision-making responsibilities to people who are too lazy, stupid, or just plain evil to think that anything other than non-stop war is their solution. This has been the case in America for 80…

> the American people have subjugated all their decision-making responsibilities to people who are too lazy, stupid, or just plain evil to think that anything other than non-stop war is their solution.

Well, I supposed you are just calling every American government employe lazy, evil and stupid. You have just insulted millions of Americans. I am sure there are lazy and evil people out there, but your view is extreme, to the point you don't even know how to deal with reality. There are hardworking people. I don't know what people do in the government because I am never a government employee. Do you happen to know? Where did you get the impression that these top officials are all evil? Based on what? Selective events and newspaper reporting? Maybe there are nice top-ranked people tried to stop the war but others overpower him in the decision making process. Some biography says some X president is not stupid, that that former president was in fact very hardworking and very smart. How do you or me know whether that's the case or not. Can newspaper mislead us? Can popular gossip and stories mislead us to think that all the higher up officials are bad and evil?

We have to respect democracy. To remind you, this is a democratic republic. We elect people to represent us. I am sure there are some lazy stupid congressmen who don't care about voters until 6 months before election. I am also sure there are people who want to change the system. Also, people can become lazy after seeing how little they could do, so they either gave up and don't care, or kept on compromising and couldn't deliver his dreams.

> This has been the case in America for 80 years now - so its a generational thing as well, at this point..

No. It has always been that way. Why didn't we end slavery early? Why didn't we end racial segregation 200 years ago? See, my point is proved: it didn't happen just 80 years ago.

Things changed and evolved as time continues to roll.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#406
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> When due process is undermined, the population becomes more alienated from the government, and more individuals become radicalized, and more terrorism happens. How many lives of soldiers would be risked and how much money would be spent for operations to 'capture' the terrorists in foreign nations? And will nations like Pakistan allow military (or law enforcement) operations on their soil by foreign govts to captu…

> Give no space for terrorists to operate in. You do understand that many people in here argue that drones are a pretty good instrument to create terrorist..?

The documentary Dirty Wars suggests that the Obama administration added an increasing number of names to JSOC's kill list based on variable confidence intelligence. Isn't this the definition of mission creep?

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#407
post #387
post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Bombay terrorist bombings are indeed -- like so many terrorist attacks -- a false-flag operation, organized by the United States' intelligence services.

Source (link) please, or I'll proclaim that the tin foil hat brigade has now thorougly infiltrated HN.

Without facts and critical-thinking skills, the hobgoblins take over.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#408
post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source (link) please, or I'll proclaim that the tin foil hat brigade has now thorougly infiltrated HN.

In a community where skepticism is valued there will exist the lazy quota who will look at popular opinion, assume the antithesis must be true and in turn, begin looking for supporting 'facts'. Don't be so surprised. :P

Oh, like publishing in academia.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#409
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The right to defend yourself is not the right to kill, especially on a mass scale. He is not asking not to kill at a mass scale. He is against killing others, regardless of what the reason is. There will be no ground for fighting for democracy. There will be no ground for protecting my life, my lover's life, or anyone's life. There is no mechanism to defend the things I cherish when a murderer comes to my doorstep…

We're talking about nation states here, not individuals. You have, absolutely, an individual right to defend yourself. You do not have - unless the state grants it to you - the right to murder other human beings. States that use murder as a solution to their problems are undoubtedly going to fail - because the purpose of the State, in the first place, is to provide human beings with safety and protection from death.…

> because the purpose of the State, in the first place, is to provide human beings with safety and protection from death

We as an individual can do anything we really want. So if someone wants to kick another person in the head, he could. He will be held legally responsible for kicking the victim.

Ideally, at least this is what the American government is/was supposed to form -- we are the one that gives the government the power. We can totally remove a President if we want. We can dissolve this Union if we want. But that won't happen easily because many of us think about stability, we apply utilitarian views. There is nothing wrong with that.

The issue that you want to raise is the state decides who can kill or not. This is part of civilization. Everyone is supposed to have a role and we determine what people can do and what people cannot do. We want to have police officers who will patrol around with a stick and a pistol. We agree that when the police officer is being attacked he can apply an equivalent counterforce. If someone shoots back, the officer can shoot back. We give the offices the permission to kill another human being because we apply absolutism. We only harm those who harm us directly.

Not every police shooting gets away from legal and moral judgement. Some are found guilty for using excessive force or intentional murdering.

We don't protect people why just educating them. We mobilize them. We arm them, we teach them how to build a healthy body, what to do when they face danger. The world you imagine will not work in any civilization as long as there is a freedom to think. As I said before, the only reason we have desire is because we are allowed to think for ourselves and for other people. We are angry because we have emotions. We become depressed because we have expectations. To protect people who become incapable of staying peaceful and respectful by harming another person physically or mentally (e.g. verbally), we use some form of force on them. And this could be military action (to protect people from invasion) or apprehension. This is true because we value our own life, and we want to be protected.

It is true that some of the military action is morally impermissible in this modern time. We don't need to do a revenge in order to show off our power to scare off our enemies (this was necessary in ancient time), but we shouldn't say that every time we slaughter a human is morally impermissible.

The ethic approach I take is virtue ethics, which looks at the environment, rather than the action or the consequence.

You said what makes us human is that we can decide what not to do and if we allow killing we will go back to animal. I don't see why we should disregard our familiar biological facts. We are animals. Animals have emotions. They can group and hunt. They can think on their own. They may not have science or computer to use, but they are also thinking. In fact, no one can prove or disprove whether physicalism is true or false, whether dualism is true or false. We cannot. We have "the other minds problem". We can't really know what it is like to be a bat (Nagel's paper). We can only speak from our own experience: oh so this is sonic vision and this is how we can see if we had a sonic vision, but that's it.

So what is left with us? We will continue to apply survival of fitness? There was a famous case in England where two sailors were charged to kill this other young sailor boy after the shipped sunk and after they starved for months.

(1) had the boy came up with the idea first and sacrifice himself, is killing that person in the first place wrong?

(2) had the boy asked about this, and the boy agreed, is killing the boy to help the other two more healthy sailors from starvation morally wrong?

Will you be willing to give up your space shuttle ticket to your friend and sacrifice yourself in a zombie crisis? If Russia had dropped an atom bomb years ago, would you think it was okay to destroy Russia like we destroyed Germany by saving the rest of the America? Or do you actually think we can apply peaceful talk?

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your killer is a straw man - someone who seeks to only kill more, to become the most murderous possible person (s)he can, a "Hannibal Lector" of vengeance w/o the epicurean instinct. Then you've further demonized him/her. This is paranoid idealization. But some notes: fit2rule: "when you are in the business of killing, murdering, maiming other human beings, you're no longer really part of society" Soldiering sometime…

Look around you. What is the rarest substance in all the universe? Life. Why should we remove it from the face of the Earth, if we haven't yet engaged it in conversation? Every villager killed is a missed opportunity to educate, enlighten, and liberate - both parties. The point is this: there isn't enough evidence to support killing, and more than sufficient evidence to support not killing. Yet, it still happens - an…

fit2rule:" What is the rarest substance in all the universe? Life. "

I would say "Intelligence." There's an abundance of life on Earth but not much intelligence.

fit2rule: "The point is this: there isn't enough evidence to support killing..."

There often is. If someone has wantonly killed before, (s)he'll do it again. One can allow them to continue or stop the activity. I have little to no mercy for someone intent on homicide. Such people are not usually willing to sit down and talk their problems through.

fit2rule: "...the people have not woken up to the fact that they are responsible for the actions of their State, and that they do deserve whatever comes to them when they let their State murder, maim, kill."

Until now I didn't realize that you were laying out a justification for terrorists, jihadis et al to strike against nation-states. Thank you for that clarification.

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