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We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

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Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#161

Post by foobarian »

blhack wrote: post #32
pvnick wrote: post #20

I consider everybody here very smart. In many cases smarter than myself. Therefore, could somebody please explain why we would give the government, which has shown itself to be terribly incompetent with technology issues, the ability to enforce net neutrality? Seriously, I can't get over the dissonance here. If it's such a shitty idea, let consumers decide. Google Fiber et al will just eat the major telecoms' lunch s…

Because the telcos are currently enjoying a "natural monopoly". The cost of entry to become a telco is so high, that normal competitive forces do not apply. In situations like this, one role of government is to regulate these natural monopolies to protect citizens. One such regulation, for instance, is that the power company cannot shut off your power in the middle of winter in Minnesota without fulfilling some prett…

I thought it was the other way around, i.e. the telcos were given a monopoly on the wires, in order to avoid a bunch of different companies all running their own cables and turning the streets into an ugly mess. In exchange there is a bunch of regulation such as they are required to provide service to rural areas at a loss.

Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#162

Post by argumentum »

jjoonathan wrote: post #142
cam_l wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's your business plan? Thanks, this is is a point I do not see expressed enough. Regulatory capture just one expression of a 'free market'. When you are a non-moral entity, free to do business however you want, you will cheat, you will find ways within any system to lock others out of your market, you will screw the customer for every last cent, you will break the law if you can get away with it - or at least t…

> Liberalists seem to believe that free-marketism is a self-[optimizing] algorithm. It's worth noting that in the US, the term "liberal" is often used in association with those who are skeptical of the free market (moreso than their political opponents, anyway). Classical liberalism does promote laissez-faire economic policy, so you aren't incorrect, but the term is a bit ambiguous in context (see the 2nd paragraph i…

> I believe that governments ought to put consumer interests first, even though presently they have a track record of doing the exact opposite.

For me, this is the part I'd emphasize, and probably where we could create a great deal of consensus. Whether or not we agree that the government should be interfering for the benefit of the consumer, we definitely agree that it shouldn't be interfering for the benefit of big business.

Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#164

Post by adharmad »

jjoonathan wrote: post #142
cam_l wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's your business plan? Thanks, this is is a point I do not see expressed enough. Regulatory capture just one expression of a 'free market'. When you are a non-moral entity, free to do business however you want, you will cheat, you will find ways within any system to lock others out of your market, you will screw the customer for every last cent, you will break the law if you can get away with it - or at least t…

> Liberalists seem to believe that free-marketism is a self-[optimizing] algorithm. It's worth noting that in the US, the term "liberal" is often used in association with those who are skeptical of the free market (moreso than their political opponents, anyway). Classical liberalism does promote laissez-faire economic policy, so you aren't incorrect, but the term is a bit ambiguous in context (see the 2nd paragraph i…

I think cam_l meant libertarian.

Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#165

Post by rayiner »

pvnick wrote: post #20

I consider everybody here very smart. In many cases smarter than myself. Therefore, could somebody please explain why we would give the government, which has shown itself to be terribly incompetent with technology issues, the ability to enforce net neutrality? Seriously, I can't get over the dissonance here. If it's such a shitty idea, let consumers decide. Google Fiber et al will just eat the major telecoms' lunch s…

At least part of it is that tech companies benefit from net neutrality in the fight against the telcos. Its really to the advantage of distributors like Google or Netflix if net connections are dumb commoditized pipes. That allows them to extract a larger share of the revenue from any given customer. Unsurprisingly, distributors don't want telcos to be able to differentiate their services by partnering with distributors.

This is one of the two key dynamics in the tech industry. The other is distributors versus content companies. When Amazon streams you a movie made by NBC/Universal over pipes built by Verizon, Amazon is positioned antagonistically to these other companies in wanting to extract the largest share of the total you're willing to pay for the whole package. Net neutrality helps them do this, and so does weaker copyright protections, among other things.

Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#166

Post by Patrick_Devine »

raverbashing wrote: post #38
pvnick wrote: post #20

I consider everybody here very smart. In many cases smarter than myself. Therefore, could somebody please explain why we would give the government, which has shown itself to be terribly incompetent with technology issues, the ability to enforce net neutrality? Seriously, I can't get over the dissonance here. If it's such a shitty idea, let consumers decide. Google Fiber et al will just eat the major telecoms' lunch s…

How's the 'invisible hand' working for healthcare again? I'm very against government regulation, but something it's necessary.

As a Canadian living in the US, I'd have to say it works a lot better than up north. I realize that's probably heresy for a lot of people, however, it's hard to stomach seeing your parents having to wait multiple years to get in to see a doctor. Particularly when they have debilitating health issues.

That said, I'm not sure what the right answer is; I want everyone to have access to good health care. I'm not sure I need to be able to get in to have an MRI in a day or two like I can here, however it would be nice if my mother could have one without waiting for two years.

Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#167

Post by rayiner »

foobarian wrote: post #161
blhack wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the telcos are currently enjoying a "natural monopoly". The cost of entry to become a telco is so high, that normal competitive forces do not apply. In situations like this, one role of government is to regulate these natural monopolies to protect citizens. One such regulation, for instance, is that the power company cannot shut off your power in the middle of winter in Minnesota without fulfilling some prett…

I thought it was the other way around, i.e. the telcos were given a monopoly on the wires, in order to avoid a bunch of different companies all running their own cables and turning the streets into an ugly mess. In exchange there is a bunch of regulation such as they are required to provide service to rural areas at a loss.

Its both. Monopoly with infrastructure providers is inevitable, so in many cases the government created regulated monopolies instead of letting unregulated monopolies arise naturally.

That said, telcos are not monopolies. They're in a hybrid state of regulated competition.

Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#168

Post by shit_parade »

blhack wrote: post #32
pvnick wrote: post #20

I consider everybody here very smart. In many cases smarter than myself. Therefore, could somebody please explain why we would give the government, which has shown itself to be terribly incompetent with technology issues, the ability to enforce net neutrality? Seriously, I can't get over the dissonance here. If it's such a shitty idea, let consumers decide. Google Fiber et al will just eat the major telecoms' lunch s…

Because the telcos are currently enjoying a "natural monopoly". The cost of entry to become a telco is so high, that normal competitive forces do not apply. In situations like this, one role of government is to regulate these natural monopolies to protect citizens. One such regulation, for instance, is that the power company cannot shut off your power in the middle of winter in Minnesota without fulfilling some prett…

hard to know if the 'cost is too high' or not since regulation makes it impossible for companies to compete. Know what cost is too high? State enforced monopolies.

Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#169

Post by nickff »

jjoonathan wrote: post #60
blhack wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the telcos are currently enjoying a "natural monopoly". The cost of entry to become a telco is so high, that normal competitive forces do not apply. In situations like this, one role of government is to regulate these natural monopolies to protect citizens. One such regulation, for instance, is that the power company cannot shut off your power in the middle of winter in Minnesota without fulfilling some prett…

Exactly. Competition is the "active ingredient" in the free market, and "freedom" from regulation does not always suffice to guarantee competition. Utilities are the textbook example.

The utility market used to be competitive, then municipalities began "licensing" them, which eventually led to the current state of affairs.[1] Even lighthouses, which have large externalities, can be built and operated without government intervention, as they did for a very long time.[2]

[1]http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/ElectricityandItsRegulati...

[2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lighthouse_in_Economics

Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#170

Post by morgante »

pnut wrote: post #9

The toothpaste is out of the tube already, people know what freedom online tastes like. Bad news for old money - the Internet has an appetite for rentier blood. This will not be tolerated long term.

Likely nobody would even realize. It's not like the telcos would block sites. Instead, suddenly Netflix loads a lot slower than Comcast. Blame Netflix and move on.
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