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Uncomfortable parallels with the era that led to the first world war

economist.com

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Re: Uncomfortable parallels with the era that led to the first world war

#61
post #7

Not a very good analysis of the causes of WWI or application to today: Problems: 1) Cultural attitude of "eh, war is not so bad and higher tech means we'll be home by xmas". See franco-prussian war and the most recent "world war" being Napoleon's activities in the decade after the revolution a century ago. I'm not seeing much warmongering as a cultural phenomena. Of course that can change quickly, 90% of everything A…

The more important aspect was the social and government structures pre-WWI. Europe was still dominated by an aristocratic elite and a very class based society. That elite drove public opinion and policy. It served as the officer corps. It served in government and in civil service. It's very difficult today to imagine a world so different from today, especially with regard to class.

Ultimately what all that meant was that the bad old ways that European aristocracy had always worked continued apace. Empire was an extension of national pride, and primarily extractive and selfish. Foreign policy was also selfish and dominated not by the thought of maintaining order by by the idea of gaining advantage. And only moderated by the fear of a foreign hegemon and the desire to team up to prevent such in order to maintain the conditions that allowed everyone to scuttle about and get up to geopolitical hijinx for the benefit of their own country.

These patterns of behavior had led to a great number of wars in Europe's past, it was a strong pattern. Wars fought for territorial or trade advantage: Wars fought to reign in a hegemon. Etc. That was how things were, even going back to the hundred years war and earlier. In the 19th century you had the Napoleonic wars, the wars of German/Italian unification, various imperial skirmishes, the Franco-Prussian war, etc.

The point being, wars were seen as being an opportunity for advantage and positive change. And the powerful elite at the time very much had a fascination and lust for war due to its glorification as well as the immediate financial gain of being an officer. The concept of an existential war, the concept of wars that took millions of lives, the concept of a war where bullets and bombs were putting troops on the front lines in danger of death every day for years was not a concept Europe at the time could understand.

And in the shock of the war a lot of the old ways of Europe broke apart and were destroyed. Post WWI Europe was much different than it was before the war, and you can see this culturally. Post WWI cultural artifacts tend to seem much more modern and tend to more easily resonate with modern sensibilities than pre-war stuff does.

The point being, it wasn't just the alliances and weapon buildup that brought about WWI. More than anything it was a culture that saw war as a tool for gaining advantage, a culture that tended to fall into a war between great powers at least once a generation. That sort of culture doesn't exist anymore in the great powers. Even in countries that see geopolitics as a realm for gaining selfish benefits generally there just aren't a lot of folks who are eager to go to war. At best there are folks who think that it's wise to go to war in order to take out an enemy that's a threat, but that's a very different proposition than the pre-WWI situation.

Re: Uncomfortable parallels with the era that led to the first world war

#62
On some level I am quite glad that china, its neighbors and the US are arguing over some rocks and some identification zone.

It looks more like an ritualistic show fight you sometimes see in the animal kingdom than an eve of war.

For that matter I am quite glad that they are not rattling their sabers about Taiwan...

Nothing about the disputed island would be worth even a very small scale war, much less the risk of a bigger one. There's just no profit in it. On the other hand, battles about islands (like the Falklands War) tend to cost a lot less lives, especially civilian, than any land-based war.

No, this is more about China trying to harness nationalistic emotions on the one hand and their "opponents" not wanting to present China with an opportunity for actually profitable wars or threats.

If for example the US and Japan would back down, China might "negotiate" the annexation of Taiwan in the near future, which would be profitable. There have been rumors of such attempts already, and China's military buildup makes this ever more realistic.

Re: Uncomfortable parallels with the era that led to the first world war

#63
I recently read a fabulous history of WWI (G.J. Meyer's _The World Undone_). What struck me is that if you modeled Europe in 1914 as a distributed system, you'd see incredible latencies between decisions being made and decisions being carried out. Kaiser Wilhelm and King George (first cousins!) were negotiating to stave off the war long after Germany's decision to mobilize, and might very well have succeeded were it possible to reverse the mobilization decision. The German generals insisted it wasn't. And even before then, Germany's decision to mobilize was based on reports of Russia's decision to mobilize, which also took weeks to carry out. If communication and military latencies were shorter, maybe the war could have been avoided. It was like the world's worst race condition.

Re: Uncomfortable parallels with the era that led to the first world war

#64
post #54

There is one major difference: Since the Snowden affair, the United States no longer have allies.

The Snowden affair made ZERO difference to US alliances. Seriously zero. The US will still be able to depend on UK, JP, AU, NZ, CA, SK etc.

Alliances don't get torn up because of a bit of spying.

Re: Uncomfortable parallels with the era that led to the first world war

#65
post #7

Not a very good analysis of the causes of WWI or application to today: Problems: 1) Cultural attitude of "eh, war is not so bad and higher tech means we'll be home by xmas". See franco-prussian war and the most recent "world war" being Napoleon's activities in the decade after the revolution a century ago. I'm not seeing much warmongering as a cultural phenomena. Of course that can change quickly, 90% of everything A…

This is a great analysis, but I'd hesitate to call anything the "root cause" of WWI. Of course the Ottoman Empire's decay was a factor, but hard to say that it was more important than the many others listed here and elsewhere.

Re: Uncomfortable parallels with the era that led to the first world war

#66
No nuclear armed country has ever been invaded and war between two nuclear armed countries seems ridiculous.

On the other hand, as the article says, people in 1914 were making similar claims about the interdependence of their economies and their new technologies.

Still, it's quite a different situation.

Re: Uncomfortable parallels with the era that led to the first world war

#67
post #7

Not a very good analysis of the causes of WWI or application to today: Problems: 1) Cultural attitude of "eh, war is not so bad and higher tech means we'll be home by xmas". See franco-prussian war and the most recent "world war" being Napoleon's activities in the decade after the revolution a century ago. I'm not seeing much warmongering as a cultural phenomena. Of course that can change quickly, 90% of everything A…

I'm not seeing much warmongering as a cultural phenomena. In the U.S., perhaps not. But nationalism and remilitarisation are flaring up in China and Japan, respectively. Who exactly is supposed to invade China next decade if they don't invade today? China, with good reason, perceives itself as being surrounded by U.S.-allied countries looking to suppress its growth. Since growth is the currency the Communist Party tr…

Clearly you have not read Siegfried Sassoon's Public Statement Of Defiance. It was published in The London Times on 17 July 1917:

"I am making this statement as an act of wilful defiance of military authority, because I believe the war is being deliberately prolonged by those who have the power to end it.

I am a soldier, convinced that I am acting on behalf of soldiers. I believe that this war, upon which I entered as a war of defence and liberation has now become a war of aggression and conquest. I believe that the purposes for which I and my fellow soldiers entered upon this war should have been so clearly stated as to have made it impossible to change them, and that, had this been done, the objects witch actuated us would now be attainable by negotiation.

I have seen and endured the suffering of the troops, and I can no longer be a party to prolong these sufferings for ends which I believe to be evil and unjust. I am not protesting against the conduct of the war, but against the political errors and insincerity's for which the fighting men are being sacrificed.

On behalf of those who are suffering now I make this protest against the deception which is being practised on them; also I believe that I may help to destroy the callous complacence with which the majority of those at home regard the continuance of agonies which they do not share, and which they have not sufficient imagination to realise."

We have not moved on from 1917. The US seeks out war for fun and profit. Peace is a disaster for the military industrial complex, war, or at least the preparation for war, has to be perpetuated. Militarism is the cancer at the heart of almost every government, most notably the USA. Even Carter wasn't able to inoculate it. Although most Americans don't want war - it is not cultural - those people in Washington want nothing more for the exact same reasons Sassoon described.

Re: Uncomfortable parallels with the era that led to the first world war

#68
post #9

Thankfully, I don't see WWIII starting anytime soon... But I've always strongly thought the "globalisation will make war unthinkable" argument is naive. We're tribal creatures -Nationalism trumps economic interest at the end of the day. History shows this to be true. As the author hinted at - Russia, Germany, Britain, Belgium, and France were each other's biggest trading partners - by far! Heck, a Belgium company bui…

> Heck, a Belgium company built both the Belgium fortifications... and the German artillery that eventually breached them!

Which fortifications are you talking about?

The Germans used Krupp and Skoda siege guns to reduce the fortifications at Liège. Krupp was a German company, and Skoda was an Austro-Hungarian company based in Bohemia (today's Czech Republic).

Re: Uncomfortable parallels with the era that led to the first world war

#69
post #9

Thankfully, I don't see WWIII starting anytime soon... But I've always strongly thought the "globalisation will make war unthinkable" argument is naive. We're tribal creatures -Nationalism trumps economic interest at the end of the day. History shows this to be true. As the author hinted at - Russia, Germany, Britain, Belgium, and France were each other's biggest trading partners - by far! Heck, a Belgium company bui…

What would you say to the argument that economic interests and power blocs wield much more influence over nations today? The political, cultural and economic establishments of most nations are now heavily infiltrated/controlled by a relatively miniscule number of financial institutions. The void left by the declining aristocracy is now arguably filled by central bankers and hedge fund managers.

Re: Uncomfortable parallels with the era that led to the first world war

#70

It's an interesting time to be writing articles like this. Afghanistan, Iraq then the 2008 financial crisis. America lost prestige and the economy shrank considerably. These factors, real and perceived, coincided with the ongoing rise of China who for the most part avoided a real let down. I suspect that when we look back in 5 years from now we will really see 2013 as the last year of this low point. The US economy i…

These same tired arguments were being made back in 2005, and given the utter lack of any sort of critical analysis backing them I predict they'll be just as wrong now as they were back then.
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