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We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

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Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#51

Post by nitrogen »

wyager wrote: post #33
dkasper wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of telcos to do as they wish with their pipes vs freedom of users to use the pipes that they pay for access to as they see fit.

The telcos don't owe users anything more than is specified in the contract. The telcos are a company; there is no moral reason to force the ISPs to do anything more than they contracted to do. Instead of having everyone continue to be pissed off at the shitty monopolistic telcos, and having the telcos continue to be pissed off because we keep demanding that the government squash the telcos' rights to provide a shitty…

Telcos and cablecos that own the lines in the ground are not an ordinary company; they often have a monopoly granted by the city that prevents others from running a parallel physical deployment, which would be wasteful anyway. Further, the last mile physical deployments are often subsidized by taxes.

As you say in your second paragraph, removing the exclusive rights held by telcos and cablecos would be one option, but since running parallel cables is physically wasteful, I'd prefer common ownership or regulation of the last mile to save companies and customers the expense of running a parallel cable, while ensuring competition beyond the last mile.

Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#52

Post by kaonashi »

pvnick wrote: post #20

I consider everybody here very smart. In many cases smarter than myself. Therefore, could somebody please explain why we would give the government, which has shown itself to be terribly incompetent with technology issues, the ability to enforce net neutrality? Seriously, I can't get over the dissonance here. If it's such a shitty idea, let consumers decide. Google Fiber et al will just eat the major telecoms' lunch s…

The only entity capable of governing, is government in some form or another.

Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#53

Post by dkuntz2 »

ewillbefull wrote: post #44
dkuntz2 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who would you have enforce net neutrality?

The only thing that needs to be enforced is anti-trust law. Monopolies are what give ISPs the ability, and perhaps the incentive, to filter and editorialize the Internet. The FTC should be involved in defending consumers against those behaviors. Net neutrality arises naturally. It didn't need enforcement 30 years ago. In some contexts, like exotic network protocols, it may not even make sense. I wouldn't care much if…

I suppose using it as a claim for unlimited authority isn't a good situation, but I don't know if I see breaking net neutrality as being a trust.

Considering where the term anti-trust came from, ISPs who block certain sites without customer consent aren't really being monopolistic in nature. Which makes, to me, defending net neutrality a separate issue than breaking trusts and monopolies...

Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#55

Post by ewillbefull »

djur wrote: post #40
pvnick wrote: post #20

I consider everybody here very smart. In many cases smarter than myself. Therefore, could somebody please explain why we would give the government, which has shown itself to be terribly incompetent with technology issues, the ability to enforce net neutrality? Seriously, I can't get over the dissonance here. If it's such a shitty idea, let consumers decide. Google Fiber et al will just eat the major telecoms' lunch s…

Consumers don't have the flexibility to decide if they're dealing with only a small number of sellers working in collusion. The cost of entry into this market is astronomically high -- even Google, with all its money and all the dark fiber it snapped up, hasn't established a foothold yet. Setting up telecommunications networks is expensive and legally complex, and the resources involved are extremely limited. The lik…

The distinguishing factor should be how the government protects net neutrality. Should the FCC have a limitless authority to regulate the Internet, which they happen to apply to net neutrality for now? Or should the FTC have authority to bring suits against monopolistic ISPs to discourage these behaviors?

Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#56

Post by allochthon »

I hate to say it, because I don't consider myself a radical, but the US congress is in the pockets of big business, US law relating to technology is broken, and US intelligence agencies have taken liberties beyond their mandate. The consequences seem fairly straightforward. The Internet will route around the damage to the system. The outcome is predictable and the dysfunction that is leading up to it is regrettable. I don't know what this bodes for US customers. Hopefully a coalition of forward-thinking companies will provide a genuine alternative to the US telcos.

Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#57

Post by fleitz »

blhack wrote: post #32
pvnick wrote: post #20

I consider everybody here very smart. In many cases smarter than myself. Therefore, could somebody please explain why we would give the government, which has shown itself to be terribly incompetent with technology issues, the ability to enforce net neutrality? Seriously, I can't get over the dissonance here. If it's such a shitty idea, let consumers decide. Google Fiber et al will just eat the major telecoms' lunch s…

Because the telcos are currently enjoying a "natural monopoly". The cost of entry to become a telco is so high, that normal competitive forces do not apply. In situations like this, one role of government is to regulate these natural monopolies to protect citizens. One such regulation, for instance, is that the power company cannot shut off your power in the middle of winter in Minnesota without fulfilling some prett…

Telecom isn't a natural monopoly, it's a government sponsored cartel.

Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#58

Post by zobzu »

pvnick wrote: post #20

I consider everybody here very smart. In many cases smarter than myself. Therefore, could somebody please explain why we would give the government, which has shown itself to be terribly incompetent with technology issues, the ability to enforce net neutrality? Seriously, I can't get over the dissonance here. If it's such a shitty idea, let consumers decide. Google Fiber et al will just eat the major telecoms' lunch s…

i current have 2 choices at my place in the US for internet: comcast cable and comast DSL.

Not sure how i'm getting the choice to use a "net neutrality compliant" ISP if comcast decides i can't reach site Z or Y.

Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#59

Post by jarjoura »

IMHO, this isn't about Netflix, YouTube, or even Amazon having to pay for higher tiered access to customers. They have the deep pockets and smart lawyers to construct contracts that work out for them in the end. So I see that as the same grumpy story as California and New York forcing Amazon to collect sales tax.

BUT, because this does force deals to be crafted behind closed doors, they will turn out looking a lot like the deals that HBO/Shotime have with Comcast and TWC. Plus, look at what's going on with Facebook already... phones in some countries have "facebook data" only plans. Sure, this is great for emerging markets to have access to family and friends for free, but at the loss of any other social network upstart that wants in on it.

I don't see indie content ever being cut off, but I do see them becoming "premium" subscription level services that require people to pay more to access them. Want to play COD or GOW online? You will need this level access to play with any reasonable speeds. It will happen slowly too, as people become accustom to the idea that opening a Wikipedia page will take 1000 ms then to 5000 ms to fully finish rendering. Someone at Comcast will nudge slowly testing whether people notice or care.

If we don't fight the good fight and force internet providers to remain dumb pipes, we are asking to have the most expensive internet on the planet. As cable TV dies in favor of watching what you want, when you want, they will naturally move to charge you for things you want to do on the internet instead.

edit: autocorrect fail :-P

Re: We’re About to Lose Net Neutrality

#60

Post by jjoonathan »

blhack wrote: post #32
pvnick wrote: post #20

I consider everybody here very smart. In many cases smarter than myself. Therefore, could somebody please explain why we would give the government, which has shown itself to be terribly incompetent with technology issues, the ability to enforce net neutrality? Seriously, I can't get over the dissonance here. If it's such a shitty idea, let consumers decide. Google Fiber et al will just eat the major telecoms' lunch s…

Because the telcos are currently enjoying a "natural monopoly". The cost of entry to become a telco is so high, that normal competitive forces do not apply. In situations like this, one role of government is to regulate these natural monopolies to protect citizens. One such regulation, for instance, is that the power company cannot shut off your power in the middle of winter in Minnesota without fulfilling some prett…

Exactly. Competition is the "active ingredient" in the free market, and "freedom" from regulation does not always suffice to guarantee competition. Utilities are the textbook example.
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