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Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

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Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#81

Post by jfarmer »

baddox wrote: post #74
jfarmer wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, I'll say, tptacek, virtually everything you write on HN is spot on, but it's most on when you're talking about issues of sexism, racism, power, and privilege. The tech industry suffers from a collective privilege-blindness and I appreciate anyone who spends any amount of their time and energy talking about it coherently and persuasively. When I was in seventh grade, we were assigned to write a little speech ab…

But what is your proposed solution to this idea of privilege? It seems like you're more disappointed with a lack of awareness of it (although a young child shouldn't be blamed for ignorance of what everyone else's home is like), rather than the existence of it. So if I say "yes, I get it, I'm a white male and therefore life is statistically easier for me," have I sufficiently recognized my "privilege"? Or do I have t…

I'm not sure what you mean by "solution." To abolish privilege? That's neither possible nor desirable, IMO. Privilege exists wherever there's a differential in power for any reason.

The problem is being blind to it and not understanding how it operates in your life and the lives of others. The solution to that problem is being committed to developing a deep sense of empathy.

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#82

Post by shantanubala »

baddox wrote: post #68
tptacek wrote: post #29

Paul Graham isn't keeping women out of technology. Nor do I believe he wants to. If anything, his interests would be served by there being more women in technology, and thus more candidates for YC. Also, Valleywag is a cesspool. I ponied up for the whole interview at The Information. I'd rather eat a bug than talk about what a Gawker publication has to say. But Paul Graham has said some things on this issue that I th…

> The coin has another side: privilege. Privilege is a simple concept. Privilege is a bogus concept, at least in every manner it has been explained to me. Examine the example you provided. If most elite startup hackers are male, English speaking, 20-40, and white or Asian, then a person giving that characterization would be giving a reasonable one based on observation. What does this have to do with "privilege" or "f…

Privilege exists when the outward characteristics you describe are used as heuristics for filtering good coders from bad coders.

Unfortunately, most people are unaware of the heuristics they are using when performing such a task. LessWrong explains some of these errors in reasoning quite well [1][2]. When generalized to an entire population, these heuristics construct a "privilege" because anyone with characteristics that do not fit the heuristics will be unfairly disqualified.

Privilege is not an active act of oppression. By having privilege, you are not necessarily actively preventing someone from achieving success. However, the fact that someone has a harder time getting a job for no reason other than not satisfying heuristics for innate characteristics places you in a "privileged" position as a result.

[1]: http://lesswrong.com/lw/lg/the_affect_heuristic/ [2]: http://lesswrong.com/lw/lj/the_halo_effect/

EDIT: It is important to note that there are other sources of privilege. One example is the fact that females have a much higher probability of being victims of sexual assault. As a male, I spend less time worrying about my own safety (in general) - that is a privilege.

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#83

Post by rhizome »

supergauntlet wrote: post #58
rhizome wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there something that can collectively be done about Gawker (more Vallewag)? Sure: don't talk to their writers.

If there's one thing gawker sites do well, it's nerd baiting. Yes, there are problems women face in STEM fields. No, getting everyone angry at pg isn't gonna help.

To be sure, "someone is wrong on the internet!" is what sites like these depend on for a business model.

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#85

Post by rayiner »

Crito wrote: post #78
rayiner wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I think is problemetic in the tech community is the failure to separate the profession itself from unrelated cultural aspects of the people in the profession. The industry has trouble conceiving of what makes an excellent programmer except by reference to the characteristics of existing programmers. But there is no objective insight into the probitivity of these characteristics. Nobody really can measure ho…

This is a topic that interests me, since I have not typically fallen in line with many of the "nerd/geek" lifestyle stereotypes (I don't game, watch animated movies, collect figurines or collect comic books... that sort of stuff. Instead I like going to sports bars, weightlifting, and reading sci-fi (...whoops, I guess I do conform there)) . Nevertheless, in a way I still find myself subscribing to the idea that peop…

This article on the Space Shuttle software team is a wonderful contrast to the stereotypes (often valid) of people who work in Silicon Valley: http://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff. I think the contrast between the team described in the article (older, mix gender, often married with kids), and the roomful of young men who coded in high school is extremely relevant to this issue.

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#86

Post by baddox »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #60
baddox wrote: post #27

Unfortunately for this all female team, feminists will accuse them of working to support the patriarchy just as much as the evil men. Sadly, this is actually what prominent feminists in technology believe: https://medium.com/about-work/e82b7ca7de03 (Ctrl-F "support the patriarchy"). For these feminists, women who fail are obvious evidence of patriarchy, and women who succeed are obviously just working alongside the p…

In the Medium essay you link to they are calling out women who deny the existence of sexism in tech: "The white privilege that benefits many white women in tech plays a huge role in allowing them to occupy a position denying gender oppression, supporting the patriarchy, and undermining feminist activism." This "female team" is doing the exact opposite. I think they're safe from the feminist horde. Also, you might get…

> In the Medium essay you link to they are calling out women who deny the existence of sexism in tech

The essay isn't calling out women who fit that description. It is attributing those denials to successful women in tech.

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#87

Post by Crito »

rfnslyr wrote: post #72
Crito wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the basic premise is that there is nothing in biology that makes computer science more interesting to men than it does to women. Since it is not an imbalance that can be pinned on biology (perhaps unlike an imbalance in world weightlifting records?) , the cause of the imbalance must be somehow 'nurture' related. Even if we do not consider the imbalance itself to be problematic, the imbalance is considered t…

Well, here's my take on it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6977753 Most of the men I know and have talked to specifically about fighting for pay, have in fact put up a fight for their pay, while the women I worked with believed that their work will pay for itself and have no fought for a higher pay raise. The women that are top tier managers, were actually just as vicious as the guys, and by being this way, hav…

I don't really disagree. I guess my comment is more addressing the "less women than men in the industry" thing, and not the "women negotiate lower salaries than men" thing.

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#88

Post by andrewliebchen »

jfarmer wrote: post #80
baddox wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The coin has another side: privilege. Privilege is a simple concept. Privilege is a bogus concept, at least in every manner it has been explained to me. Examine the example you provided. If most elite startup hackers are male, English speaking, 20-40, and white or Asian, then a person giving that characterization would be giving a reasonable one based on observation. What does this have to do with "privilege" or "f…

First, privilege is not a bogus concept. If you really believe that — about anything, not just privilege — you'll have a hard time learning it or amending your understanding of it because of things like confirmation bias. Second, your probability is bad. You're confusing P(A|B) and P(B|A). This is understandable — lots of people do this all the time without realizing it, myself included. Third, your understanding of…

Great definition of privilege in this context, thank you.

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#89

Post by icebraining »

jfarmer wrote: post #54
tptacek wrote: post #29

Paul Graham isn't keeping women out of technology. Nor do I believe he wants to. If anything, his interests would be served by there being more women in technology, and thus more candidates for YC. Also, Valleywag is a cesspool. I ponied up for the whole interview at The Information. I'd rather eat a bug than talk about what a Gawker publication has to say. But Paul Graham has said some things on this issue that I th…

First, I'll say, tptacek, virtually everything you write on HN is spot on, but it's most on when you're talking about issues of sexism, racism, power, and privilege. The tech industry suffers from a collective privilege-blindness and I appreciate anyone who spends any amount of their time and energy talking about it coherently and persuasively. When I was in seventh grade, we were assigned to write a little speech ab…

The last paragraph took some weight from your post, in my opinion. I agree with you in general, but comparing that description of your student with my own experience, I can't help but think that maybe he really doesn't want it enough.

Having a computer at home, he's in a much better position than I was, when I learned programming at 13 by going to a public PC for 3h/week. I also didn't know English, nor did I have any programming classes until many years later.

Later, my first home computer was a BASIC interpreter, and I also couldn't save the programs because it had no storage, so I wrote all the code to paper before shutting it down each time.

I know I'm probably missing a lot of hindrances you haven't described, so I won't judge the situation just from that, but it does make your post weaker, IMHO. Also, why haven't you got him a pen drive yet? ;)

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#90

Post by baddox »

shantanubala wrote: post #82
baddox wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The coin has another side: privilege. Privilege is a simple concept. Privilege is a bogus concept, at least in every manner it has been explained to me. Examine the example you provided. If most elite startup hackers are male, English speaking, 20-40, and white or Asian, then a person giving that characterization would be giving a reasonable one based on observation. What does this have to do with "privilege" or "f…

Privilege exists when the outward characteristics you describe are used as heuristics for filtering good coders from bad coders. Unfortunately, most people are unaware of the heuristics they are using when performing such a task. LessWrong explains some of these errors in reasoning quite well [1][2]. When generalized to an entire population, these heuristics construct a "privilege" because anyone with characteristics…

Okay, so what should I do now that I recognize that I have privilege? Do I quit my job and forfeit my college degree, since I acquired both unfairly (I guess my own perception that I sometimes work hard and plan well is delusional)? Seriously, what is the end game of this concept of "privilege"? All anyone seems to say is to "check your privilege." Great, I accept that I have privilege according to your definition of it. What now?
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