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Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

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Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#71

Post by rayiner »

tptacek wrote: post #29

Paul Graham isn't keeping women out of technology. Nor do I believe he wants to. If anything, his interests would be served by there being more women in technology, and thus more candidates for YC. Also, Valleywag is a cesspool. I ponied up for the whole interview at The Information. I'd rather eat a bug than talk about what a Gawker publication has to say. But Paul Graham has said some things on this issue that I th…

One thing I think is problemetic in the tech community is the failure to separate the profession itself from unrelated cultural aspects of the people in the profession. The industry has trouble conceiving of what makes an excellent programmer except by reference to the characteristics of existing programmers. But there is no objective insight into the probitivity of these characteristics. Nobody really can measure how much programming for fun or by 13 really matters. This leads to a lot of cargo culting ("don't hire anyone without a github!") and deempahsises training people who have aptitude but don't have the same characteristics as other programmers. This is closely related to your point about privilege. Because the industry doesn't have objective ways to evaluate programmers, it over-relies on heuristics and cultural traits that favor people who "fit the mold." The Asian guy who programs for fun gets the opportunity, while the gal who could be an excellent programmer with proper training never gets steered toward the industry.

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#72

Post by rfnslyr »

Crito wrote: post #65
rfnslyr wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand you and I fully agree. I actually work with a majority of women. I'm in the corporate sector, and there are more women then men from what I'm seeing. I still don't get the movement. Everyone knows Computer Science exists. It's just not an interesting or attractive field for everyone. Let's be honest, when you have prospective high school grads you can't make CS more interesting than say, Physics, Bio, Ch…

I believe the basic premise is that there is nothing in biology that makes computer science more interesting to men than it does to women. Since it is not an imbalance that can be pinned on biology (perhaps unlike an imbalance in world weightlifting records?) , the cause of the imbalance must be somehow 'nurture' related. Even if we do not consider the imbalance itself to be problematic, the imbalance is considered t…

Well, here's my take on it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6977753

Most of the men I know and have talked to specifically about fighting for pay, have in fact put up a fight for their pay, while the women I worked with believed that their work will pay for itself and have no fought for a higher pay raise. The women that are top tier managers, were actually just as vicious as the guys, and by being this way, have attained the same things.

People are so quick to hop on to the social justice brigade when in reality its a much more complicated and personal issue, being lumped into the gender category.

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#73

Post by xgarland »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #42
sgdesign wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing how badly people reacted on Twitter, I don't see any upside for anybody to say anything about this issue at all. Which probably won't help matters much…

Separate from the merits of the discussion, Twitter is in a phase where it LOVES to get outraged about things. It's very mobbish right now. It's really a turn-off. But I do think it's a fad that will self-correct. Once it goes too far people will lose followers for joining the mob-du-jour and will adjust accordingly.

Seems like people are just looking for any and everything to be offended by these days.

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#74

Post by baddox »

jfarmer wrote: post #54
tptacek wrote: post #29

Paul Graham isn't keeping women out of technology. Nor do I believe he wants to. If anything, his interests would be served by there being more women in technology, and thus more candidates for YC. Also, Valleywag is a cesspool. I ponied up for the whole interview at The Information. I'd rather eat a bug than talk about what a Gawker publication has to say. But Paul Graham has said some things on this issue that I th…

First, I'll say, tptacek, virtually everything you write on HN is spot on, but it's most on when you're talking about issues of sexism, racism, power, and privilege. The tech industry suffers from a collective privilege-blindness and I appreciate anyone who spends any amount of their time and energy talking about it coherently and persuasively. When I was in seventh grade, we were assigned to write a little speech ab…

But what is your proposed solution to this idea of privilege? It seems like you're more disappointed with a lack of awareness of it (although a young child shouldn't be blamed for ignorance of what everyone else's home is like), rather than the existence of it. So if I say "yes, I get it, I'm a white male and therefore life is statistically easier for me," have I sufficiently recognized my "privilege"? Or do I have to spend my entire life keeping to myself the fact that I occasionally have to work hard and occasionally still fail due to my own choices and abilities?

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#75

Post by baddox »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #56
tptacek wrote: post #29

Paul Graham isn't keeping women out of technology. Nor do I believe he wants to. If anything, his interests would be served by there being more women in technology, and thus more candidates for YC. Also, Valleywag is a cesspool. I ponied up for the whole interview at The Information. I'd rather eat a bug than talk about what a Gawker publication has to say. But Paul Graham has said some things on this issue that I th…

The irony is that there is an immense amount of money being left on the table by this whole "startup world" ignoring women and people of color.

Why do you suppose there are no competitors happily collecting this money?

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#76

Post by kbambz »

rfnslyr wrote: post #35
nsp wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technical jobs are 90%+ male, but our customer base is generally much closer to 50/50. Don't you think it's pretty plausible that having a woman working with you might add a useful perspective when making your product? I've worked at 3 startups(2 as a dev) and interviewed a couple hundred programmers over that time, and don't think I've yet even had a resume from a female programmer, and honestly that really disappoi…

I understand you and I fully agree. I actually work with a majority of women. I'm in the corporate sector, and there are more women then men from what I'm seeing. I still don't get the movement. Everyone knows Computer Science exists. It's just not an interesting or attractive field for everyone. Let's be honest, when you have prospective high school grads you can't make CS more interesting than say, Physics, Bio, Ch…

Actually, I didn't know what "computer science" was until mid-high school, and I was extremely lucky to have attended one that happened to offer a few extracurricular CS classes (I'd toyed around with HTML and CSS and built a few Geocities sites when I was around 11, but that's certainly not what I'd consider "exposure to CS"). But I don't think that's an issue of gender so much as a failure of the education system to integrate topics of CS into standard curricula.

The "problem" is the girl with straight As in my high school BC calculus class who refused to take CS because "that's hard, I wouldn't be good at it" (true story, and it confused the hell out of me when she said it). The fact of the matter is people AREN'T just "not interested". I really wouldn't care if only 0.2% of the tech industry was female or , so long as it's because they either aren't capable or interested. But I don't buy that. We've come a long, long, long way, but we're not there yet. And all the screaming and finger-pointing, such as that which PG has received (misquoted or not), just distracts from addressing what actually matters.

P.S. We actually explicitly argued AGAINST affirmative action in the post. I could go on about that for ages, but I'll just say this: I want to be held to the same standards as any other demographic, be it race, sex, or shirt color, and I don't want to have to question the legitimacy of my failures OR successes. If I thought I'd been given a handout because I have two X chromosomes, I'd be pissed.

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#77

Post by GammaDelta »

rfnslyr wrote: post #3

But that doesn’t give us free reign to ignore the problems that exist in universities, accelerators, tech companies and venture capital. These pieces of the funnel need to be thoroughly analyzed and optimized for inclusion - be it for gender, race, age, or other markers, so that we’re able to produce the best sustainable and profitable companies and organizations possible. Why? 3. ‘Not discouraging’ women isn’t enoug…

If a particular group is underrepresented there is a reason for that. It's not necessarily your fault, although unless you're very aware of ingrained sexist structures it's possible that you're contributing accidentally. It turns out that the reasons for the imbalance aren't good ones. It's not that women just love to do other things - there are pressures that actively dissuade them from pursuing technical careers. Most of this has happened long before they acquire technical qualifications and are applying for jobs. That IS sexism in our society, and it's not fair.

So where does that leave us white males working in tech?

1. We have to recognise that the gender imbalance is a problem and accept that it should be solved

2. We have to recognise there are ways we can help that are NOT simply "hire a weaker female applicant just to balance the genders"

3. Promote female participation! Sponsor school programs. Create female-only internships. Make sure that everybody in your workplace is actively educated about structural sexism so that things are as comfortable as possible for your female employees. Ensure salaries are equal.

We need to help send the signal to young women contemplating their careers that the tech industry welcomes them. Then, maybe 5 or 10 years from now, we'll be getting closer to equal applicants.

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#78

Post by Crito »

rayiner wrote: post #71
tptacek wrote: post #29

Paul Graham isn't keeping women out of technology. Nor do I believe he wants to. If anything, his interests would be served by there being more women in technology, and thus more candidates for YC. Also, Valleywag is a cesspool. I ponied up for the whole interview at The Information. I'd rather eat a bug than talk about what a Gawker publication has to say. But Paul Graham has said some things on this issue that I th…

One thing I think is problemetic in the tech community is the failure to separate the profession itself from unrelated cultural aspects of the people in the profession. The industry has trouble conceiving of what makes an excellent programmer except by reference to the characteristics of existing programmers. But there is no objective insight into the probitivity of these characteristics. Nobody really can measure ho…

This is a topic that interests me, since I have not typically fallen in line with many of the "nerd/geek" lifestyle stereotypes (I don't game, watch animated movies, collect figurines or collect comic books... that sort of stuff. Instead I like going to sports bars, weightlifting, and reading sci-fi (...whoops, I guess I do conform there)).

Nevertheless, in a way I still find myself subscribing to the idea that people in tech tend to fit these stereotypes. If I imagine a hypothetical group of [company name here] devs, I imagine them as all anime-watching gamer bros. On the other hand, when I actually encounter any particular developer, it would surprise me more to learn that they are an anime-watching gamer than it would to learn that they are not. I somehow picture groups of people to be members of a cultural group that I consider to be a minority.

I think this apparent contradiction might be caused by a discrepancy with how tech professionals are portrayed in media (as anime-watching gamer bros) with how they actually tend to appear when I meet them in person ('normal' yuppies, often young parents or 'DINKs', with a wide variety of hobbies and interests).

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#79

Post by hhw »

andrewliebchen wrote: post #36
rfnslyr wrote: post #3

But that doesn’t give us free reign to ignore the problems that exist in universities, accelerators, tech companies and venture capital. These pieces of the funnel need to be thoroughly analyzed and optimized for inclusion - be it for gender, race, age, or other markers, so that we’re able to produce the best sustainable and profitable companies and organizations possible. Why? 3. ‘Not discouraging’ women isn’t enoug…

You said: > Women are so entitled nowadays. I don't know if you're just incredibly tone deaf, callous to what your words mean, or are trying to be funny. If you think that women have equal ability to men (by your comment, maybe you don't), and you think that people should hold jobs equal to their abilities, then you should wonder why 50% of your colleagues aren't women...

Why should 50:50 be the desired ratio? Are you proposing that every industry which isn't at or near that ratio rife with gender discrimination? Do you also believe there is significant sexual discrimination against men in every industry dominated by women? Have you even considered the possibility that men and women are just interested in different things, simply due to natural proclivities, and not because one gender is actively discouraged? Note that I'm not suggesting that there isn't any discrimination in CS, but simply that there is no reason to believe that 50:50 should be the ideal ratio in this, or any other field, be it currently male or female dominated, unless there's research to support that men and women are both equally interested in that discipline.

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#80

Post by jfarmer »

baddox wrote: post #68
tptacek wrote: post #29

Paul Graham isn't keeping women out of technology. Nor do I believe he wants to. If anything, his interests would be served by there being more women in technology, and thus more candidates for YC. Also, Valleywag is a cesspool. I ponied up for the whole interview at The Information. I'd rather eat a bug than talk about what a Gawker publication has to say. But Paul Graham has said some things on this issue that I th…

> The coin has another side: privilege. Privilege is a simple concept. Privilege is a bogus concept, at least in every manner it has been explained to me. Examine the example you provided. If most elite startup hackers are male, English speaking, 20-40, and white or Asian, then a person giving that characterization would be giving a reasonable one based on observation. What does this have to do with "privilege" or "f…

First, privilege is not a bogus concept. If you really believe that — about anything, not just privilege — you'll have a hard time learning it or amending your understanding of it because of things like confirmation bias.

Second, your probability is bad. You're confusing P(A|B) and P(B|A). This is understandable — lots of people do this all the time without realizing it, myself included.

Third, your understanding of privilege is confused. As a successful, white male who has started living in Silicon Valley, I acknowledge my privilege but do not feel guilty about it. That you've bound up the idea of shame in privilege might explain why you find it hard to understand — not because it makes the idea harder to understand but because your "body" is going to have a hard time swallowing an idea that tells you you're a bad person.

Here's one way to think of privilege. Privilege is the sum total of all the things big and small that you don't have to think about on a day to day basis but other people do.

For example, as an innocent white person being approached by a police officer, I never have to wonder whether this police officer is coming to help me or harass me. Indeed, I might even presume something like, "Oh, the officer must be coming to tell me something useful."

As a male, I never have to worry about getting raped while walking down a city street at night, or plan your evening so that I won't be in that situation.

As someone with means, I never have to think about whether you have enough money to buy food to last a week, or what it feels like to have to made a trade off between food or gas this week. Or the terror of being sick without insurance.

Now, you might know these things. I don't know and I'm not presuming. I don't even know whether you're white, male, or anything else. I'm just trying to paint a picture.

If you want reading, I recommend these two essays by John Scalzi: Being Poor (http://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/) and Straight White Male: The Lowest Difficulty Setting There Is (http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-th...).

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