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Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

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Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#51
post #3

But that doesn’t give us free reign to ignore the problems that exist in universities, accelerators, tech companies and venture capital. These pieces of the funnel need to be thoroughly analyzed and optimized for inclusion - be it for gender, race, age, or other markers, so that we’re able to produce the best sustainable and profitable companies and organizations possible. Why? 3. ‘Not discouraging’ women isn’t enoug…

I follow some prominent feminists in technology, initially out of genuine interest but increasingly out of morbid curiosity, so I think I can respond with my honest impression of their beliefs.

The reason we need to actively encourage women (more so than men) to get into tech is that the tech industry is believed to be fundamentally and structurally sexist. So, for the same reason that victims of violence need special and deliberate treatment, the victims of the structural misogyny need special and deliberate treatment.

This isn't just for getting female children interested in technology, it is even the case for female entrepreneurs seeking funding. Regarding the low percentage of VC funds going to female entrepreneurs, a prominent tech feminist recently said that the percentage of female applicants is irrelevant, and that the men who run the industry should be seeking out and finding female entrepreneurs. https://mobile.twitter.com/shanley/status/417035978025357312... https://mobile.twitter.com/shanley/status/417036172448104448...

Interestingly, tech feminism seems to even support the idea that female entrepreneurs should not apply for VC funding, because it is so misogynistic. https://mobile.twitter.com/CynthiaSchames/status/41703807634...

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#52
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is the first time I saw Paul Graham appear on my Facebook Amazing times we live in, isn't it? If this is how the average person finds out who someone like PG is, what hope is there for the world at large? Please note that had PG been known through standard mass-media channels way earlier, there might have been even a fighting chance that more women (i.e. outsiders) had joined the tech world early on, since this…

I'm not sure what you mean. If somebody isn't interested in either programming or being involved with tech startups (and the overwhelming majority of people in the world are not) then I don't see any particular reason to expect people to have heard of PG. Experts in fields are typically widely unknown by the general public. I first learned of Andre Geim (A Nobel Prize winner in Physics; not my field) from a youtube v…

I'm commenting on the role of mass media in a contemporary society. This is important because I'm afraid that soon everyone is going to hear about PG/YC because "oh no, patriarchy!"

To repeat, look at engineering circa 1990s -- nearly entirely male-populated field, moderate prestige. Now look at engineering circa 2010s -- slightly more diverse field, significantly higher prestige. If you start with a 90+%-male base and you achieve moderate, growing success via entirely word-of-mouth advertising and by absorbing people from that base, you are setting yourself up for a situation where your organization reflects the base it grew out of (i.e. male engineers). And yet the media is not going to pay attention to you until your field is large and successful enough for spoils to be had from throwing rocks at you, at which point obviously they are going to criticize you for being "exclusionary". So what you have is a nearly entirely media-manufactured controversy. Why didn't the media focus on getting more women into engineering in the 1990s? Because it wasn't a prestigious enough field at the time for organized entryist action to exist.

Why is there a problem with this controversy? Because entryism exists. Entryists are interested in entering any high-prestige field and taking it over for themselves. They are not below taking up social justice banners to accomplish their goals. In fact, the most successful entryists utilize those banners to the highest effect. The whole controversy is pure manufactured evil. This is not about women's rights or social justice. It's about entryism.

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#53
post #11

We're creating an environment now in which it is practically impossible to discuss this topic in tech. Our general irrationality and desire to completely and utterly jump down the throat of anyone who even remotely touches on this topic means that in the future any gender topics are just going to get "no comment" responses. That's sad and not without a touch of irony precisely because in stifling the discussion we're…

That everything is baited with stuff like the all "white/male bro" tech industry is really what gets me. You're not inviting anyone to change anything with that mindset. I was eager to read and consider their suggestions up until that last bit, when I immediately backed off and just shrugged.

How many gender-blind software architects were out there through this entire technology boom we've seen in the last 40 years? Just tinkering away at platforms and code and programs, not really thinking about anything other than their craft. Someone will jump in and say that it was their privilege to be able to just focus, unlike X minority trying to do the same, and I'll agree with you there. To think that there's some odorous force emanating from these privileged folks, working to keep others out, strikes me as strange. The "bros" in tech are hardly the ones that built or stand near the entry-gates.

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#54
post #29

Paul Graham isn't keeping women out of technology. Nor do I believe he wants to. If anything, his interests would be served by there being more women in technology, and thus more candidates for YC. Also, Valleywag is a cesspool. I ponied up for the whole interview at The Information. I'd rather eat a bug than talk about what a Gawker publication has to say. But Paul Graham has said some things on this issue that I th…

First, I'll say, tptacek, virtually everything you write on HN is spot on, but it's most on when you're talking about issues of sexism, racism, power, and privilege. The tech industry suffers from a collective privilege-blindness and I appreciate anyone who spends any amount of their time and energy talking about it coherently and persuasively.

When I was in seventh grade, we were assigned to write a little speech about what we'd do if we were in charge of the school. One of my classmates, Dan, gave a speech about how he'd use computers to more rightly integrate school and home-life. After I was done, I asked, "What about people who don't have computers at home?" He responded with a look of confusion on his face, "What? You mean like poor people or something?"

My family didn't have enough money to afford a computer growing up. I got my first computer in 10th grade: a 486 running Windows 3.1 that my mother's boss was going to simply throw away. Dan's words felt like a slap in the face, even in 7th grade.

If I had read pg's words in 7th grade, they would have felt like a slap in the face, too. Getting my face slapped does not make me or anyone else more interested. It makes people think, "This thing isn't for me."

People in technology, especially men, are utterly blind to privilege. It's astounding. It's also frustrating because explaining privilege to someone who has never seriously experienced the lack of it is like trying to explain to a fish what it's like to breath without water.

Here's another story. I recently mentored a 13-year-old kid through an after-school non-profit. I taught him the basics of programming. He had all the affinity in the world, but it was still hard even with my guidance. Why? There was one laptop shared among all the members of the family — mother, father, 3 brothers, 2 sisters — and he'd only show up to our sessions with the laptop maybe 50% of the time. Any work he'd do between session would often be lost because other people would tinker with it. Everyone around him teased him for playing with computers so much and being so "nerdy" and "gay." Neither of his parents spoke much English — a Spanish translator had to be present when I was having an extended conversation with either.

But obviously my student just didn't want it bad enough.

Blagh.

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#55
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After finishing with a statement so women-hating and/or trolling as "Women are so entitled nowadays.", there really can't be a sensible discussion. Downvoting is, I believe, the only reasonable option.

After finishing with a statement so women-hating and/or trolling as "Women are so entitled nowadays.", there really can't be a sensible discussion. Check your sensitivity. That's how I feel from my own experience dealing with women. A lot of them feel that they are being crushed by men with no real world example, it's a large modern bandwagon. Modern day pseudo-feminism, that is.

If you have decided to put 50% of the population into a single box, I find that to simplistic.

Would you accept a similarly general negative statement about men? All men are lazy? All men put women down? Or would you consider any such statement too generalising?

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#56
post #29

Paul Graham isn't keeping women out of technology. Nor do I believe he wants to. If anything, his interests would be served by there being more women in technology, and thus more candidates for YC. Also, Valleywag is a cesspool. I ponied up for the whole interview at The Information. I'd rather eat a bug than talk about what a Gawker publication has to say. But Paul Graham has said some things on this issue that I th…

The irony is that there is an immense amount of money being left on the table by this whole "startup world" ignoring women and people of color.

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#57
post #29

Paul Graham isn't keeping women out of technology. Nor do I believe he wants to. If anything, his interests would be served by there being more women in technology, and thus more candidates for YC. Also, Valleywag is a cesspool. I ponied up for the whole interview at The Information. I'd rather eat a bug than talk about what a Gawker publication has to say. But Paul Graham has said some things on this issue that I th…

I didn't find his comments sexist in the least. If anything, they were almost purely observational, and I tend to agree with him. But they were also quite discouraging in regards to picking up programming later in life and how it correlated with success. As someone who was interested in computers at 13, but never had the opportunities or support to pursue that interest until much, much later in life, it's a bit sad to be told that it may be too late. To deliver that message when referring to an entire gender, I can imagine, can be doubly as discouraging.

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#58
post #41
post #23

Is there something that can collectively be done about Gawker (more Vallewag)? I know, freedom of speech, etc, but they time and time again publish the most incendiary articles based on the wildest of intentional misinterpretations. It is the farthest thing from "hard-hitting" or "raw" journalism, and at times borders libelous.

Is there something that can collectively be done about Gawker (more Vallewag)? Sure: don't talk to their writers.

If there's one thing gawker sites do well, it's nerd baiting.

Yes, there are problems women face in STEM fields. No, getting everyone angry at pg isn't gonna help.

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#59
post #11

We're creating an environment now in which it is practically impossible to discuss this topic in tech. Our general irrationality and desire to completely and utterly jump down the throat of anyone who even remotely touches on this topic means that in the future any gender topics are just going to get "no comment" responses. That's sad and not without a touch of irony precisely because in stifling the discussion we're…

IMO, folks on HN need to do much less discussing on this topic and a lot more listening. For the most part, HN is collectively blind to issues of power and privilege.

For those interested in learning more about privilege, read these two essays by John Scalzi, Being Poor (http://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/) and Straight White Male: The Lowest Difficulty Setting There Is (http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-th...).

Try to read them without being reflexive or poking holes in them. If you find yourself getting riled up or defensive stop and ask yourself why you're feeling the need to respond that way.

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#60
post #27

Unfortunately for this all female team, feminists will accuse them of working to support the patriarchy just as much as the evil men. Sadly, this is actually what prominent feminists in technology believe: https://medium.com/about-work/e82b7ca7de03 (Ctrl-F "support the patriarchy"). For these feminists, women who fail are obvious evidence of patriarchy, and women who succeed are obviously just working alongside the p…

In the Medium essay you link to they are calling out women who deny the existence of sexism in tech:

"The white privilege that benefits many white women in tech plays a huge role in allowing them to occupy a position denying gender oppression, supporting the patriarchy, and undermining feminist activism."

This "female team" is doing the exact opposite. I think they're safe from the feminist horde.

Also, you might get something from this comic: http://www.harkavagrant.com/?id=341 You seem to be experiencing similar terrors.

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