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A glimpse into a new programming language under development at Microsoft

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Re: A glimpse into a new programming language under development at Microsoft

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a systems language. The competitors are c, c++, go, and D. Within Microsoft it's just c and c++. Competition with Java is irrelevant, c# already occupies that space. Microsoft has enough need and scale that a systems language that picks up internal use is justified. The use case is making platforms, not crossing them.

Go, a systems language? I would not be so sure. Stop-the-world garbage collection and dynamically typed interfaces seem like a poor fit for this niche.

Ack ... I'm largely ignorant of the details of go other than its original positioning. Do the semantics of go constrain gc implementation in such a way that it precludes low latency? Or is it just not a focus of the implementors?

Re: A glimpse into a new programming language under development at Microsoft

#132
post #122

YAGPL (yet another general-purpose language). I think we've had enough of those in the past decade. Each one has something new to offer, but at the same time it disperses attention of the programmer crowd and so less effort is put into each language's development. I think we need to experiment more with single-purpose languages. I'm not saying DSLs because those are mostly embedded syntactic constructs in existing la…

How about a system for creating single-purpose languages?

http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2011004_steps11.pdf

Re: A glimpse into a new programming language under development at Microsoft

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go, a systems language? I would not be so sure. Stop-the-world garbage collection and dynamically typed interfaces seem like a poor fit for this niche.

Ack ... I'm largely ignorant of the details of go other than its original positioning. Do the semantics of go constrain gc implementation in such a way that it precludes low latency? Or is it just not a focus of the implementors?

Although Go has channels for civilized communication between goroutines, the language does not have a native notion of what data is owned by which goroutine, which pretty much forces garbage collection to stop the whole world.

This, together with pervasive mutability, means that communication using channels is merely a convention that can easily be circumvented.

Re: A glimpse into a new programming language under development at Microsoft

#134
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't Java still require an instalation of JRE, which is an analogue to .NET? edit: If it somehow didn't need it, I would start considering it as my next language to learn.

No. The JRE can ship with the app. The CLR ships with the OS.

The fact that the JRE can ship with the app doesn't change the fact that it stills need a VM runtime with all the overhead that it implies.

Re: A glimpse into a new programming language under development at Microsoft

#135

The homepage of Joe Duffy says "I’ve been granted 45 patents, with another 33 pending" (see his homepage under /about via google cache since the page is down due to load from HN). Bragging about patents doesn't exactly make me like the guy. Has he been living under a rock, why would he write that on his about page? Anyway, he says explicitly that he cannot reveal any details at this point; i.e. Microsoft has filed pa…

> Bragging about patents doesn't exactly make me like the guy. Has he been living under a rock...

No, you've been living in an echo chamber :-)

Open source enthusiasts may well want to share their work for free (or statistically more likely, use others' work for free), but that's their prerogative. Most companies will not give away their competitive advantage and will seek to protect it anyway they can, and similarly, they are well within their rights to do so.

However, open source seems to be the dominant religion around here. And also you have a lot of Google employees here, and Google is a bit handicapped when it comes to patents at the moment. This is why you hear a disproportionate amount of anti-patent rhetoric. Outside these circles, most engineers are either ignorant about patents or quite proud of their patents.

Re: A glimpse into a new programming language under development at Microsoft

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Computer games which are impacted by performance the most are written in what language?

I doubt that C++ is chosen because of raw performance (both C# and Java are close enough), but mostly because of memory and cpu cycle determinism.

>"(both C# and Java are close enough)"

Not really, a GC call in the middle of your render loop can drop your FPS rate significantly, and those cpu cycles are vital when you start adding physics simulation, not to mention the limitation of memory on consoles.

Sure, Java and C# would be enough for minecraft or some xbox live puzzle game, but I really doubt that you could manage to write an Uncharted game in Java or C# on a PS3 or an Xbox.

Re: A glimpse into a new programming language under development at Microsoft

#137
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't Java still require an instalation of JRE, which is an analogue to .NET? edit: If it somehow didn't need it, I would start considering it as my next language to learn.

No. The JRE can ship with the app. The CLR ships with the OS.

> No. The JRE can ship with the app. The CLR ships with the OS.

Yet you still need the JRE for Java.

Re: A glimpse into a new programming language under development at Microsoft

#138

The homepage of Joe Duffy says "I’ve been granted 45 patents, with another 33 pending" (see his homepage under /about via google cache since the page is down due to load from HN). Bragging about patents doesn't exactly make me like the guy. Has he been living under a rock, why would he write that on his about page? Anyway, he says explicitly that he cannot reveal any details at this point; i.e. Microsoft has filed pa…

>> Joe Duffy says "I’ve been granted 45 patents, with another 33 pending"

>> Bragging about patents doesn't exactly make me like the guy.

Genuinely asking, do you see putting information on patents as bragging or more generally as a negative? I have also been putting the same on my profile, so would like to understand your viewpoint better to see if I should remove it.

My side of the story:

I have nearly always worked for big technology companies and for various reasons they are always very protective of their IP. This means that an employee can barely talk about his/her projects at the company without making the description too generic. People are barely allowed to publish papers on their work, make contributions to open-source (unless with consent of the employer, which is rare), and cannot have side projects [1].

Such generic descriptions of the projects and a mere mention of the skills do not leave many options for employees to demonstrate their expertise. Recommendations is one way (and I correspondingly have plenty of stellar ones on my LinkedIn profile), but is also gamed a lot: I know several cases where non-deserving people also have great recommendations.

Then comes the patent filings. I have been known as a well-respected and "a prolific inventor" in my last employment, the "most original thinker" at college, etc. Yet, it is hard to reflect this on the profile or CV since these terms by themselves are also often overused.

[1] While it may be a common practice to have side projects, the employment agreements most big technology companies have, that most people sign without even reading, place a lot of restrictions on the side projects. These issues have been discussed on HN several times before. In fact, since most employees do not even read these agreements, talk about negotiating on them, the equilibrium position for these agreements is heavily biased in the favor of employers than of employees.

Re: A glimpse into a new programming language under development at Microsoft

#140

The homepage of Joe Duffy says "I’ve been granted 45 patents, with another 33 pending" (see his homepage under /about via google cache since the page is down due to load from HN). Bragging about patents doesn't exactly make me like the guy. Has he been living under a rock, why would he write that on his about page? Anyway, he says explicitly that he cannot reveal any details at this point; i.e. Microsoft has filed pa…

> Bragging about patents doesn't exactly make me like the guy. Has he been living under a rock... No, you've been living in an echo chamber :-) Open source enthusiasts may well want to share their work for free (or statistically more likely, use others' work for free), but that's their prerogative. Most companies will not give away their competitive advantage and will seek to protect it anyway they can, and similarly…

> you have a lot of Google employees here, and Google is a bit handicapped when it comes to patents at the moment. This is why you hear a disproportionate amount of anti-patent rhetoric.

Do you actually belive this?

> most engineers are either ignorant about patents or quite proud of their patents.

Cooperate America seems to be the only echo chamber that belives software patents are a pretty neat idea.

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