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Royal pardon for codebreaker Alan Turing

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Royal pardon for codebreaker Alan Turing

#151

Post by infruset »

amaral-herberth wrote: post #146
infruset wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, any democratic system in which no citizen is institutionally above every other citizen by mere reason of being born certainly seems better to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to troll. It's just that I would have a really hard time living in a country where such privileges by birth exist.

Sorry to tell you, but this kind of system does not exist in reality. Heads of states in all States are above some laws and there are plentiful of reasons for this. And by the way, if you think is undemocratic to have an unelected head of state, just think about the reasons that supreme court members are not elected. Democracy has its limits :-)

> Sorry to tell you, but this kind of system does not exist in reality. Heads of states in all States are above some laws and there are plentiful of reasons for this.

But they are not so by birth, that was my point.

>supreme court members are not elected

I assume you are talking about the US? In any case, they are not nominated by right of their birth, but they are chosen by elected people.

Re: Royal pardon for codebreaker Alan Turing

#152

Post by scintill76 »

icambron wrote: post #38
tptacek wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly false. People could have looked the other way, and Turing could have lived a longer, happier life, and we could all be that much less aware of the injustice done to hundreds of thousands of other LGBT people throughout the last century. The tragedy is the policy that cost Turing his life, not the fact that an exception wasn't made for him. It cost many more people than Turing.

Yes, wow. To go further, there is something deeply troubling about the parent's line of reasoning: that the tip of its spear is that Turing could have helped computing more, and not that the law was heinous in its treatment of humanity. The priorities required to even think of a point like that baffle me.

Especially ironic when it simultaneously uses phrases like "short sighted" and "disgusting lack of humanity."

Re: Royal pardon for codebreaker Alan Turing

#153

Post by vithlani »

Let this be a reminder to all hackers and geniuses out there: protect yourself from your society. You exist purely at the mercy of your physical realm. It does not matter how essential your discoveries, how profitable, how useful to mankind, how breathtaking. If you are perceived as being a risk (through something simple like your sexuality) you will be ground to dust. The decision will be made (perhaps justifiably) but it will be executed by the worst sort of petty human being: bureaucrats, under achievers, jealous men and beasts in human form who have been handed down power by the state. They will unleash a torrent of hellfire in your life.

This beast does not discriminate: weather a gathering of Sikhs in a park, tribes of Africans or a sole genius with an arguably significant contribution to the war effort - to the beast they are all one once the order has been given.

Always ensure you have some form of protection and a way out.

The British establishment should be ashamed of themselves. They have tolerated homosexuality for centuries among the upper classes up to and including the royals. To grind down a man on the level of Turing with for such an absurd reason is an act of criminal stupidity. All the more so after his efforts during the war.

The computer science community all the world over should reject this "pardon" and ask the queen to stuff it up her posterior.

Re: Royal pardon for codebreaker Alan Turing

#155

Post by lostlogin »

rmc wrote: post #138
lostlogin wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope so, it should pay, and heavily. If it was my tax pound I'd support this. The minimum amount of harm this discrimination caused is pretty high, and there is little than can be done to correct this. Financial compensation is about the best thing actually possible, so do it while the victims are still alive. The lame option of waiting until 99% of the victims are dead, then offering some kind of pardon is vastly…

How far back would you be willing to go? The UK has been around a long time. Witch burnings in the middle ages? Land confiscation in Ireland in the 17th Century? Abuses of The East India Company in India? The Harrowing of the North by William the Conqueror in the 11th century?

We haven't finished figuring out how to sort out the mess that was the colonizing of New Zealand yet, but once we have worked through that, it might be useful to refer to when sorting out the earlier messes that the Empire (and earlier rulers) created!

Re: Royal pardon for codebreaker Alan Turing

#156

Post by berrypicker »

SimonPStevens wrote: post #126

What I find most intriguing about this is the how a law that was enforced only 50 years ago has so quickly become abhorrent to the majority of the population. It's an interesting thought experiment to consider which laws we routinely use today to punish people will become morally unacceptable in the next 50 years. Copyright and patent laws, and laws used against Snowden's whistle blowing are some obvious ones that ar…

The trend is that certain ideas are offensive and are therefore kept censored or ridiculed, until people can overlook those societal views of past generations and assess the ideas with a fresh perspective, at which point they become accepted.

There are things today which if you say you might lose friends over, but I am certain it's a case of nation-wide groupthink. Evidence? In other parts of the world these ideas are widely accepted already.

Re: Royal pardon for codebreaker Alan Turing

#157

Post by [deleted] »

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #36
groovy2shoes wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexual intercourse of any kind spreads disease. AIDS didn't become an epidemic because of anal intercourse. It's pretty clear that AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases spread just as well from almost any kind sexual activity, and many of them -- including AIDS -- spread from any transfer of bodily fluids at all. Going further, I'd wager that any form of interpersonal contact, even non-sexual, is as likely to…

They used to lock you up for adultery, too, right up to the 60s. Disease was a consideration. So it's not just a matter of targeting gays. > AIDS didn't become an epidemic because of anal intercourse Yes it did. This is not remotely controversial. Aids and many other STDs are spread chiefly by buggery. This is why the red cross does not want blood donations from homosexuals.

[deleted]

Re: Royal pardon for codebreaker Alan Turing

#158

Post by Alex_MJ »

acheron wrote: post #18

75,000 men were convicted under the same law, of whom 26,000 are still alive. [1] Only Turing has been "pardoned". My understanding [2] is that the "pardon" implies there was nothing wrong with the law as such, just that Turing is forgiven for having broken it. So while I guess this is better than nothing, I don't know if it's really the way to go about it. [1] http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201314/ldhans…

Is there some LGBT organization in the UK who could pull off publicly granting a pardon to the government for its' treatment of Alan Turing?

Re: Royal pardon for codebreaker Alan Turing

#159

Post by davidtanner »

rmc wrote: post #139
SimonPStevens wrote: post #126

What I find most intriguing about this is the how a law that was enforced only 50 years ago has so quickly become abhorrent to the majority of the population. It's an interesting thought experiment to consider which laws we routinely use today to punish people will become morally unacceptable in the next 50 years. Copyright and patent laws, and laws used against Snowden's whistle blowing are some obvious ones that ar…

I think trans rights are something that in 50 years time will be like gay rights now. We'll look back 50 years to today and think the treatment by society of trans people was barbaric. In 50 years time Chelsea Manning might get an apology because medication she needed wasn't given to her in prison.

We can only hope.

Re: Royal pardon for codebreaker Alan Turing

#160

Post by hahainternet »

infruset wrote: post #135
hahainternet wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so maybe there's a problem with this system? There are many problems. When you find a better system to replace it with, then let us know. Until then throwing away a millenia of history so we can have President Cameron sounds like hell to me.

Well, any democratic system in which no citizen is institutionally above every other citizen by mere reason of being born certainly seems better to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to troll. It's just that I would have a really hard time living in a country where such privileges by birth exist.

> Well, any democratic system in which no citizen is institutionally above every other citizen by mere reason of being born certainly seems better to me.

Sounds good to me, but the Monarchy isn't a particularly big part of that. Once we've solved or made at least some progress on fixing social mobility we can bother to get rid of powerless figureheads that bring us only profit.

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