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Why everyone should use Safari for rich web development

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Re: Why everyone should use Safari for rich web development

#31

Post by mikeyur »

emontero1 wrote: post #28
ruddzw wrote: post #6

"Basically, if some HTML/CSS works on Safari, the chances are very high it will work on Firefox 2 and higher, and on IE 6 and higher (with minor tweaks)." I don't get it. A lot of the hardship that comes with web development is that stuff that works great in modern standards-based browsers like Safari doesn't work when you try to view it in IE. I can't count the number of times I've taken a webpage that I developed t…

Evidently, the author got a bit carried away there. The implication that just because your HTML works in Safari means that it'll also work in IE or Firefox with "minor tweaks" is simply bogus. Anyone with any significant web development under his/her belt would vehemently disagree. I think the author is just an ardent Safari user. That's all good and dandy if you ask me. However, we should call it for what it is: tha…

The only way I can see this is when talking about Firefox. I have built stuff using Safari and when I test it out in FF my padding is off by like 5 px or something silly.

Using another browser like IE usually breaks the whole thing.

Re: Why everyone should use Safari for rich web development

#32

Post by trezor »

zimbabwe wrote: post #29
trezor wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's with the defensive attitude? I'm saying that things being pretty is not my primary concern when looking for development tools. It's OK if they are pretty, but that's pretty far down on the list of things I care for. As for Safari's rendering engine, I see you claim that is "leagues ahead of everything else" on Windows. Are you talking about text-rendering? In that case I would like to comment on how it is diff…

It looks "weird" because it uses a much better method of anti-aliasing. The Windows system is worse than shit. It is hell for designers because it's impossible to make fonts look anything other than shit without turning them huge, and even then they look like shit. Safari is the shining exception. I'm not defensive. You're the one who just got into a little minirant. I was explaining why I prefer Safari for developme…

First of all.

Sometimes we comment because we honestly think you've raised a point worth debating and discussing. I'm sorry for responding to you like you wanted a debate, instead of assuming you were a prick.

In that case, I guess I read your comment wrong. Sorry about that.

It looks "weird" because it uses a much better method of anti-aliasing.

It's still different from everything else on the platform. To me that's a bad thing. Maybe not to you, maybe not to designers, but to me it is.

So there's no room for graceful degradation, then?

There is. But in the meantime I've found that I can cover lots of browser shortcomings trough jQuery instead of CSS and browser-specific hacks. Definitely not ideal, but it works. When CSS3 gets here, I'll prefer that instead.

Safari supports what there is at the moment.

I'm not against progress, but even Firefox has limited HTML5 support these days, and it's really not a major selling point for me as of yet.

What makes Safari craptacular? Safari 4 on Windows has a native feel

I actually had to check this out. Seems you are actually right. Historically though Apple has always tried to cram the Apple look and feel down my throat when it is obvious I don't want a Mac, giving me a non-native interface. I resent that.

That said, the fact remains that it is simply not what I am looking for in a browser (see my other post [1]).

As for my main complaint (with regard to the software being crap), my Core i7 is the first machine which iTunes is actually responsive and non-laggy on. I was genuinely surprised when I discovered that. I had to get a 2GHz Dual Core machine before Quicktime could play things fullscreen without skipping. My 200MHz Pentium MMX could that without CPU load.

When I refer to Apple software on Windows as craptacular, that is because they have quite a history for being just that.

[1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=696002

Re: Why everyone should use Safari for rich web development

#33

Post by zimbabwe »

trezor wrote: post #32
zimbabwe wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks "weird" because it uses a much better method of anti-aliasing. The Windows system is worse than shit. It is hell for designers because it's impossible to make fonts look anything other than shit without turning them huge, and even then they look like shit. Safari is the shining exception. I'm not defensive. You're the one who just got into a little minirant. I was explaining why I prefer Safari for developme…

First of all. Sometimes we comment because we honestly think you've raised a point worth debating and discussing. I'm sorry for responding to you like you wanted a debate, instead of assuming you were a prick. In that case, I guess I read your comment wrong. Sorry about that. It looks "weird" because it uses a much better method of anti-aliasing. It's still different from everything else on the platform. To me that's…

That all makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to reply!

Re: Why everyone should use Safari for rich web development

#34

Post by encoderer »

lanaer wrote: post #22
ruddzw wrote: post #6

"Basically, if some HTML/CSS works on Safari, the chances are very high it will work on Firefox 2 and higher, and on IE 6 and higher (with minor tweaks)." I don't get it. A lot of the hardship that comes with web development is that stuff that works great in modern standards-based browsers like Safari doesn't work when you try to view it in IE. I can't count the number of times I've taken a webpage that I developed t…

If you happen to like inline-block (which I do), you’ll break FF 2 fairly reliably, as well.

+1 for inline-block

Re: Why everyone should use Safari for rich web development

#35

Post by encoderer »

zimbabwe wrote: post #29
trezor wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's with the defensive attitude? I'm saying that things being pretty is not my primary concern when looking for development tools. It's OK if they are pretty, but that's pretty far down on the list of things I care for. As for Safari's rendering engine, I see you claim that is "leagues ahead of everything else" on Windows. Are you talking about text-rendering? In that case I would like to comment on how it is diff…

It looks "weird" because it uses a much better method of anti-aliasing. The Windows system is worse than shit. It is hell for designers because it's impossible to make fonts look anything other than shit without turning them huge, and even then they look like shit. Safari is the shining exception. I'm not defensive. You're the one who just got into a little minirant. I was explaining why I prefer Safari for developme…

Wow man, leave this crap on Slashdot where it belongs.

Nearly every statement you've made about Safari has been subjective. You're entitled to that. But there's no reason to lose your lunch when somebody disagrees.

I'll share my own subjectivity that the only thing "worse than shit" right now is your attitude about this.

We're talking about a browser.

And I'll tell you what... FF on Mac is absolutely horrible. I use safari on my mac (at home). When using Windows (at work), I use FF3 and Firebug.

I don't mind going back and forth between them. And I have learned to accept that fonts do look fuzzy in Safari and the dev-tools in FF are sub-optimal.

Re: Why everyone should use Safari for rich web development

#36

Post by jonbwhite »

halo wrote: post #13

I don't really find these arguments compelling. Using the Acid3 test in this context is misleading. Acid3 tests a random selection features to ensure they work corrrectly. In this case, Firefox 3.5 fails on 7 of the tests and 5 of these are due to SMIL (pretty much SVG animation) and SVG fonts. They are obscure features, and don't provide a compelling reason to choose Safari over Firefox, least of all for development…

Arguably, the only reason why OSX could be considered the only system that test via virtualization is that Apple makes it illegal to virtualize OSX in the first place.

Re: Why everyone should use Safari for rich web development

#38

Post by moe »

edw519 wrote: post #16

OK, maybe I'm stupid or slow, but there's something I just don't get about "browser wars". Exactly where does it say that HTML, CSS, & Javascript has to be source code? If browser differences cause you so much grief, why don't you just treat whatever goes out to the client as "object code" of your own engine. That engine would have to create a different page for each browser that you decided to support. Sure, it woul…

If browser differences cause you so much grief, why don't you just treat whatever goes out to the client as "object code" of your own engine.

You mean like, swf?

Browser differences are accomodated through maintenance to your engine, not every page or library.

You mean like, by adobe?

While you're at it, take a look at your user's resolution as well, and serve it the way they want to see it, not what you decided is best. No one likes horizontal scrolling or white space on the edges.

Well if these are your priorities then I suggest to take a look at Flex.

You limit your audience to clients who have the plugin - but other than that it just works™.

Re: Why everyone should use Safari for rich web development

#40

Post by rimantas »

trezor wrote: post #10
ruddzw wrote: post #6

"Basically, if some HTML/CSS works on Safari, the chances are very high it will work on Firefox 2 and higher, and on IE 6 and higher (with minor tweaks)." I don't get it. A lot of the hardship that comes with web development is that stuff that works great in modern standards-based browsers like Safari doesn't work when you try to view it in IE. I can't count the number of times I've taken a webpage that I developed t…

Indeed. Sounds very much backwards to me. If anything, stuff developed to work with the restricted CSS-support in older MSIE versions (MSIE8 is actually not that bad) has a much higher chance of rendering correctly in Firefox, Opera and Safari than the other way around.

It may sound backwards but is it not. It is a broad topic and much can be said on this, but the short version is: it is always advisable to develop looking at more standards compliant browsers and then tweak it to work in IE. Usually it will take less effort.

The reason for this is that IE let's you deviate more from standards, and then fixing it for other browsers will take more time. Also, other browsers albeit having own quirks are much more consistent – that means that if it works in Safari it is most likely to work in Firefox and Opera too.

Of course IE does not support a lot of things other browsers do. Maybe it is time to weight you options there: are you sure you want site to look the same across all the browsers and is it worth the effort? Or can you live with simpler version for IE but gaining advantage of having to write and maintain less code?

Highly recommended site ;) : http://dowebsitesneedtolookexactlythesameineverybrowser.com/

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