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The real use of money is to buy freedom

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Re: The real use of money is to buy freedom

#121

Post by king_jester »

dbecker wrote: post #91
nexttimer wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real use of money is to buy freedom The real problem is: This additional freedom you can buy with money means less freedom for somebody else. Inequality (wealth-based) means nothing else than domination. If you are richer, then you dominate the poorer people. And richer countries dominate poorer countries. This is the most basic and fundamental injustice [0] we seem to accept in our Western culture. Because we…

The real problem is: This additional freedom you can buy with money means less freedom for somebody else. This assumes that wealth is a zero-sum game, so it can be traded around but not created. It's hard to reconcile that view with the fact that standards-of-living have been growing, more or less worldwide , for the two centuries.

Wealth is not zero-sum nor need it be, the only thing required for wealth inequality is that the current pool of wealth be heavily consumed and dominated by a small segment of people, leaving very little of the remaining pool for others.

Re: The real use of money is to buy freedom

#122

Post by ashray »

dbecker wrote: post #91
nexttimer wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real use of money is to buy freedom The real problem is: This additional freedom you can buy with money means less freedom for somebody else. Inequality (wealth-based) means nothing else than domination. If you are richer, then you dominate the poorer people. And richer countries dominate poorer countries. This is the most basic and fundamental injustice [0] we seem to accept in our Western culture. Because we…

The real problem is: This additional freedom you can buy with money means less freedom for somebody else. This assumes that wealth is a zero-sum game, so it can be traded around but not created. It's hard to reconcile that view with the fact that standards-of-living have been growing, more or less worldwide , for the two centuries.

Is the standard of living really growing for everyone? Or are there more people now (%wise) in poverty ?

This is an honest question as several people have mentioned the standard of living argument before on HN. I've read however that the rich-poor divide is growing and thus am just wondering about this..

Re: The real use of money is to buy freedom

#123

Post by flyinglizard »

calibraxis wrote: post #117
flyinglizard wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a simplistic view. Most rich people became rich because they provided a particular value to society. This value is exchanged for money, which allows the rich to draw back this value as they see fit. Lets imagine that Steve Jobs, instead of getting paid for his iPhones, sold them in exchange for a person's time. The average hourly wage in USA is approximately $24, meaning an iPhone would retail for abou…

Not true; there's a reason why we have police, military and (in the US) the world's biggest imprisonment rate. Let's reframe. Our economic system is capitalism. That means I can exclusively control (via state force) a region's natural resources (a "property" relation between me and everyone else in the universe). It also means that most people try to rent themselves out, giving themselves up to someone's command for…

Among Forbes top 20 billionaires, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who's made his fortune from natural resources.

A person who seeks value from society - value originating at the work of others - has to provide such value back. If all you can do is simple manual labor, you will need to provide quite a lot of it to purchase scarce items that have a high degree of inherent value (such as an iPhone).

Re: The real use of money is to buy freedom

#124

Post by c3o »

flyinglizard wrote: post #107
tveita wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were more people than Steve Jobs involved in manufacturing the iPhone.

The same logic applies to each of them. It is assumed they chose to work for Apple, and that their salary reflects whatever value they bring the company.

That assumption is an oversimplification, concealing myriad dependencies, power/negotiating imbalances, information asymmetry, imperfect markets, lack of choice, restricted individual freedom, etc.

Re: The real use of money is to buy freedom

#125

Post by randallsquared »

ashray wrote: post #122
dbecker wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem is: This additional freedom you can buy with money means less freedom for somebody else. This assumes that wealth is a zero-sum game, so it can be traded around but not created. It's hard to reconcile that view with the fact that standards-of-living have been growing, more or less worldwide , for the two centuries.

Is the standard of living really growing for everyone ? Or are there more people now (%wise) in poverty ? This is an honest question as several people have mentioned the standard of living argument before on HN. I've read however that the rich-poor divide is growing and thus am just wondering about this..

Both can be true at once. The richest are farther ahead than the richest were, in monetary terms, but the poor have made huge strides in absolute wealth as well: it's possible to live a 1950s upper middle class lifestyle on almost the same dollar amount in 2013. Our idea of what a middle-class lifestyle entails, though, is now far above that.

Re: The real use of money is to buy freedom

#126

Post by snowwrestler »

ashray wrote: post #122
dbecker wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem is: This additional freedom you can buy with money means less freedom for somebody else. This assumes that wealth is a zero-sum game, so it can be traded around but not created. It's hard to reconcile that view with the fact that standards-of-living have been growing, more or less worldwide , for the two centuries.

Is the standard of living really growing for everyone ? Or are there more people now (%wise) in poverty ? This is an honest question as several people have mentioned the standard of living argument before on HN. I've read however that the rich-poor divide is growing and thus am just wondering about this..

It's growing for most people in the world. The exceptions would probably be those who live in areas that are experiencing war or failed governments.

I don't have time to dig up sources but it's not hard to research. Wikipedia is a good place to start.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_reduction

Re: The real use of money is to buy freedom

#127

Post by gnaritas »

dbecker wrote: post #91
nexttimer wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real use of money is to buy freedom The real problem is: This additional freedom you can buy with money means less freedom for somebody else. Inequality (wealth-based) means nothing else than domination. If you are richer, then you dominate the poorer people. And richer countries dominate poorer countries. This is the most basic and fundamental injustice [0] we seem to accept in our Western culture. Because we…

The real problem is: This additional freedom you can buy with money means less freedom for somebody else. This assumes that wealth is a zero-sum game, so it can be traded around but not created. It's hard to reconcile that view with the fact that standards-of-living have been growing, more or less worldwide , for the two centuries.

> This assumes that wealth is a zero-sum game, so it can be traded around but not created.

And you assume that because it's not always zero-sum, that it never is, a position just as fallacious.

Re: The real use of money is to buy freedom

#128

Post by redblacktree »

Artistry121 wrote: post #102
rikacomet wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

perhaps, its this way, that earning money is so hard compared to other things we do in our life (except love), is we have to push our self so much, to earn it, but once we have enough.. we can't stop. Thats because its also incredibly hard to stop earning money once you know how to do it.

How hard is earning money? At least in America I know plenty of people who make money by sitting at a cash register ringing up items all day or sitting at a desk in air conditioning. Hard work is the farming and toiling that true advancements in technology, through trade, have made unnecessary and inefficient in today's world. In America everyone has access to more information than ever before, more comfort than ever…

You've been in a reddit AMA with a 103 year old BAMF, haven't you?

Re: The real use of money is to buy freedom

#129

Post by JoeAltmaier »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #119
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Iowa; those things you mention are the comic-book version of America. Nobody is shooting anybody around here; only college students end up in jail, overnight, when they leave the bars at 2AM and wander in the streets and might hurt themselves.

Comic book or statistics? I guess that mainland states' countryside is one thing and urban poverty in large cities is another thing. One more reason to take income rankings with a grain of salt. As a preedictor of lifestyle.

Oh, and a guy got arrested yesterday when he waved a gun around trying to steal a pair of gloves from a local farm store. Since its -14 degrees F this morning, I have some sympathy for the poor guy.

Re: The real use of money is to buy freedom

#130

Post by notahacker »

Artistry121 wrote: post #106
flyinglizard wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a simplistic view. Most rich people became rich because they provided a particular value to society. This value is exchanged for money, which allows the rich to draw back this value as they see fit. Lets imagine that Steve Jobs, instead of getting paid for his iPhones, sold them in exchange for a person's time. The average hourly wage in USA is approximately $24, meaning an iPhone would retail for abou…

And those involved in creating the iPhone (in countries with strong property laws) all entered into a trade agreement where they provided their time or skills in exchange for a certain amount of money. Bill Gates had to give 30 cents of every dollar he earned to the US government to avoid going to prison. That's domination - the threat of force if penance is not paid. Wal-mart never made anyone work for them. They si…

And everybody that wanted to distribute copies of Windows in the United States was forced to pay for a licence to avoid going to prison, by that same government that collected 30 cents of every dollar Bill Gates earned. Let's not pretend that private property isn't backed by force - necessary or otherwise - here. The average person has a lot less choice over whether to work for a living than Bill Gates has over whether to do business in the United States on its terms or not.
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