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Microsoft Project Siena (Beta)

technet.microsoft.com

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Re: Microsoft Project Siena (Beta)

#11

Post by sergiotapia »

rshlo wrote: post #4

Looks nice. The problem with M$ is that over the years they've always offered simple tools for creating software, and then abandoning it somewhere along the way. Access is a great example.

I don't know why you were voted down. Had I invested heavily in learning Silverlight a couple of years ago, I would find myself with my thumb squarely secured up my own ass.

I can't imagine spending so much time and effort learning how to use a framework only to have it discontinued in it's infancy. Silverlight dying was a good thing and ultimately it's a win for everybody as HTML is more open, but still - I feel for the devs out there who waste their time.

Edit: On the plus it does use HTML and JS, instead of something much more closed. :)

Re: Microsoft Project Siena (Beta)

#12

Post by arebop »

emmett wrote: post #2

I found this page most incomprehensible, so I looked around. A reasonable summary of what they're trying to build here is "HyperCard for the internet", which is actually a pretty cool idea. This article had the best short summary in my opinion: http://www.theverge.com/2013/12/19/5227140/microsoft-project...

"HyperCard for Windows 8" rather: It's a Windows 8 application for making Windows 8 applications (which can use the network). Which makes this much less interesting to me.

Re: Microsoft Project Siena (Beta)

#13

Post by TheAnimus »

sergiotapia wrote: post #11
rshlo wrote: post #4

Looks nice. The problem with M$ is that over the years they've always offered simple tools for creating software, and then abandoning it somewhere along the way. Access is a great example.

I don't know why you were voted down. Had I invested heavily in learning Silverlight a couple of years ago, I would find myself with my thumb squarely secured up my own ass. I can't imagine spending so much time and effort learning how to use a framework only to have it discontinued in it's infancy. Silverlight dying was a good thing and ultimately it's a win for everybody as HTML is more open, but still - I feel for…

>I don't know why you were voted down. Had I invested heavily in learning Silverlight a couple of years ago, I would find myself with my thumb squarely secured up my own ass.

Not really, as someone who specialised in WPF since it's latter beta stages, I still am finding plenty of work at a very good rate. Same thing goes with silverlight, even in a discontinued state, it still is going to have years and years of bug fixes. Just no new functionality.

The fact is, even today with all the frustrations I have with WPF been 'unfinished' it is still a lot more pleasurable than HTML/Knockout or something that tries to make HTML palatable.

A quick search in London on your favourite job site shows that learning WPF hasn't been a waste of time, my skills are not in a vacuum, I also have strong OOP skills, whilst knowing how to run software projects. Plus learning something is never bad. Obviously I wouldn't recommend someone learning it now. But compare it with whichever flavour of the month framework people are loving right now, people who've learn say Ruby on Rails aren't as fashionable as say Node.js is right now. But just do a quick jobs search in London and you'll see that you'd be better off on average doing WPF/Silverlight than RoR.

Re: Microsoft Project Siena (Beta)

#14

Post by danso »

I don't have a critique of this on technical merits, and obviously, an initiative that helps all users better manage information is step forward. And this isn't a critique of Microsoft specifically, but the descriptive copy for it follows a trend that bugs me:

> View and download sample apps, learn best practices, and see how other app builders are using Project Siena to build visually stunning interactive apps today.

Why does everything have to be "visually stunning" these days? No, I don't mean in actuality, but described as such? A service that can build useful apps that improve our lives should be associated with adjectives like "powerful", "flexible", "intuitive"...And no, I don't endorse the use of adjectives in general, I'm just saying I wish copywriters, their managers, their product designers, etc. would not worry so much about "beauty" especially when "beautiful" is something that can be seen and should speak for itself.

I guess it's not the copywriters' fault as so much as just writing what the public likes to see...I wish the public would expand their concept of what good software is, how "beauty" is great, but not at all the primary requirement for the domain of something like the OP.

And of course Microsoft is not alone at fault. If anything, Apple probably inspired it, and who can blame Apple considering their success? Look at how their copy for a spreadsheet application:

http://www.apple.com/creativity-apps/mac/

> Numbers helps you make spreadsheets more insightful — and more beautiful. Drop your data into a stunning, Apple-designed template. Or start with a blank canvas. Add in some quick calculations. Then visualize the numbers with a dramatic interactive chart. Suddenly, you see what it all means. How beautiful is that?

(I'll be the first to admit, I do like having nice typography in my Terminal, though)

Re: Microsoft Project Siena (Beta)

#15

Post by mikestew »

rshlo wrote: post #4

Looks nice. The problem with M$ is that over the years they've always offered simple tools for creating software, and then abandoning it somewhere along the way. Access is a great example.

Access is a horrible example (they still sell it, and it still works), and you have so many better ones to choose from. WinForms, Silverlight, and..., hmm that's all that really come to mind. Maybe FoxPro, but MSFT didn't create it and everyone expected them to kill it when they bought it (they kept it around for over ten years after).

And "M$"? Am I going to have to go find the link to that Penny Arcade cartoon?

Re: Microsoft Project Siena (Beta)

#17

Post by randomfool »

What's the relation between this and LightSwitch? Both are from DevDiv and it seems like there's a good deal of overlap in goals.

Is LightSwitch being de-emphasized (put on life support) because it doesn't fully encourage WinRT?

Re: Microsoft Project Siena (Beta)

#18

Post by randomfool »

danso wrote: post #14

I don't have a critique of this on technical merits, and obviously, an initiative that helps all users better manage information is step forward. And this isn't a critique of Microsoft specifically, but the descriptive copy for it follows a trend that bugs me: > View and download sample apps, learn best practices, and see how other app builders are using Project Siena to build visually stunning interactive apps today…

The copy is cringe-worthy in general-

"a new technology for business experts, business analysts, consultants, and other app imagineers. Now, without any programming, you can create powerful apps for the device-first and cloud-connected world, with the potential to transform today’s business processes."

Re: Microsoft Project Siena (Beta)

#19

Post by stinos »

HNJohnC wrote: post #10
rshlo wrote: post #4

Looks nice. The problem with M$ is that over the years they've always offered simple tools for creating software, and then abandoning it somewhere along the way. Access is a great example.

M$? What decade are we in?

the one where non-Microsoft users (or maybe rather, Microsft-haters) still want to express how they feel about Microsoft in every single sentence they use on the subject.. It's been around for a long time, and probably will still be used for a long time. Just ignore it and hope they eventually get over their slightly childish behaviour.

Re: Microsoft Project Siena (Beta)

#20

Post by FiddlerClamp »

emmett wrote: post #2

I found this page most incomprehensible, so I looked around. A reasonable summary of what they're trying to build here is "HyperCard for the internet", which is actually a pretty cool idea. This article had the best short summary in my opinion: http://www.theverge.com/2013/12/19/5227140/microsoft-project...

An important point - you can't create ready-for-the-Windows Store apps using Siena. They're apparently meant for internal company applications.

I think you can export the project at the end so it can be massaged into a distributable app using VB/etc.

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