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Telegram protocol defeated. Authors are going to modify crypto-algorithm

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Re: Telegram protocol defeated. Authors are going to modify crypto-algorithm

#171

Post by Twirrim »

sillysaurus2 wrote: post #135
DanBC wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Current implementation of telegram api is prone to MiM attack but I would not consider TextSecure completely safe app > I just don't know what to say to this. Telegram has been proven insecure, TextSecure hasn't. Telegram isn't designed by cryptographers, TextSecure is. There is absolutely every reason to assume Telegram is broken. Textsecure is designed by cryptographers, and hasn't been broken yet, but that doesn…

> If you want to be secure from the NSA, use TextSecure [...]. It's really that simple. That claim is far too confidant! If you want to be secure from NSA you need to do many things - have a look at the specifications for buildings that handle secret documents for example, as well as just using a piece of well designed but relatively untested software. That's why I removed it 15 seconds after I wrote it. But perhaps…

If you rely on a single secure (for certain values of the word 'secure') messaging system or protocol you're absolutely insane. You'd want to be splitting your communication across multiple communication sources, with none of them ever seeing enough data to compromise whatever it is you're worried about. Deep and computationally expensive is great; deep, computationally expensive and broad is better. If one form (e.g. Telegraph) falls they've not got the full message, and they've still got a lot more work to do to get the whole thing.

Re: Telegram protocol defeated. Authors are going to modify crypto-algorithm

#172

Post by danabramov »

charlesdm wrote: post #11
knodi wrote: post #10

200k gone just like that, better now then later.

He's not getting it apparently, even though he discovered a major flaw. Sounds like a great PR stunt gone bad for Telegram. What a joke.

He's getting $100 000.

https://vk.com/wall-52630202_7858

Re: Telegram protocol defeated. Authors are going to modify crypto-algorithm

#173

Post by ge0rg »

solyanyk wrote: post #152

The Telegram guys chose to view it as a proof of inherent superiority of humble Russian programmers over NSA-backed American haters (I wish I was kidding!). Here is what Pavel Durov had to say on the matter (translated from his public post on vk.com http://vk.com/wall-52630202_7858 ): > This story makes me once again admire Russian programmers. For a whole week esteemed American cryptographers on HackerNews were pick…

Not sure if the VK post was edited later on, but you are missing the other important statements by Pavel:

* There was no data leak, the vulnerability is fixed, there is no danger. * It was a good idea to open the source and protocol for review. * The founder of the vulnerability deserved a reward of $100k, and comparable rewards will be made for further attacks of similar grade.

Re: Telegram protocol defeated. Authors are going to modify crypto-algorithm

#175

Post by ge0rg »

On http://vk.com/wall-52630202_7858 Pavel Durov writes that the finder of this vulnerability will receive a reward of $100k, and that comparable awards will be given for other findings. It looks like they are slowly making progress from a rigged show to a proper crypto evaluation situation.

Re: Telegram protocol defeated. Authors are going to modify crypto-algorithm

#176

Post by biafra »

yatsyk wrote: post #155
sillysaurus2 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think that they “rejected any attempt from the crypto community to help them”, especially after bug bounty proposition? I've written about this pretty extensively: https://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=by%3Asillysaur... It's an interesting contrast in cultures that you phrase it like "Why do you think Telegram lies more than TextSecure advocates?" .... As far as I'm aware, TextSecure advocates have…

I've not found any attempts to help them apart from this bug report. >TextSecure's interest is in security, whereas Telegram's interest seems to be in money and power I can't read minds or even their messenger logs so I can't comment what is their interest but I'd be interested to know why you think so > TextSecure completely safe app Just wrong. How could you call something "completely safe" or bug free? >Each of th…

>> TextSecure completely safe app

> Just wrong. How could you call something "completely safe" or bug free?

Where did he say that "TextSecure [was a] completely safe app"?

Why are you misrepresenting his words?

He said TextSecure was not proven insecure (As was Telegram). That does not mean or imply that it is safe or secure.

Re: Telegram protocol defeated. Authors are going to modify crypto-algorithm

#177

Post by makomk »

yatsyk wrote: post #94
onedev wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never forget. RIP Telegram (2013-2013). This whole thing has been interesting to follow because it seems this same thing happens every time someone make macho Crypto-claims. From seeing how confident the Telegram team was to reading all the detractors who were so ready to criticize. It's an interesting dynamic in the Crypto community.

Hate tone discussion makes me sad. Telegram is very young project and it has bugs for sure. Some guy found potential issue in protocol and developers committed to fix it soon. There is no information that any messages were revealed due to this bug but Telegram should go away and developers should do something else. Whatsapp is less secure then Telegram but I have not seed “Whatsapp RIP” messages. Not so hard to save…

It's impossible to tell whether any messages were revealed due to this bug - that's what makes it so nasty. Users would have had the same level of security if Telegram had no end to end encryption whatsoever and simply promised they wouldn't log or read the messages they had access to; it's seriously that broken. (Worse, there's a good chance this is an intentional backdoor since the way they combine the nonce and Diffie-Hellman result is incredibly fishy.)

Re: Telegram protocol defeated. Authors are going to modify crypto-algorithm

#178

Post by jalada »

daeken wrote: post #62
pvnick wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you post such an inane one-liner like that? Jimmytucson made a very good point, which is that the very intelligent Telegram authors tried really hard to make a solid product, made a huge gamble that didn't quite pay off like they wanted, and that all we see now are the smug, told-you-so vultures swooping in to pat themselves on the back for being oh so much smarter than the stupid crypto guys.

The problem is that if the authors had actually consulted crypto guys, none of this would have happened. Their lack of security shouldn't be excused.

Yeah you're right, the 'crypto guys' would've probably just said "Don't even try it because you'll kill people and even we wouldn't want to try and do it".

Crypto is hard to get right, that doesn't mean anyone shouldn't even bother trying.

Re: Telegram protocol defeated. Authors are going to modify crypto-algorithm

#179

Post by solyanyk »

ge0rg wrote: post #173
solyanyk wrote: post #152

The Telegram guys chose to view it as a proof of inherent superiority of humble Russian programmers over NSA-backed American haters (I wish I was kidding!). Here is what Pavel Durov had to say on the matter (translated from his public post on vk.com http://vk.com/wall-52630202_7858 ): > This story makes me once again admire Russian programmers. For a whole week esteemed American cryptographers on HackerNews were pick…

Not sure if the VK post was edited later on, but you are missing the other important statements by Pavel: * There was no data leak, the vulnerability is fixed, there is no danger. * It was a good idea to open the source and protocol for review. * The founder of the vulnerability deserved a reward of $100k, and comparable rewards will be made for further attacks of similar grade.

I didn't mean to present his whole post. It was the first statement that I had issue with. I amended my comment to make it clear.

Re: Telegram protocol defeated. Authors are going to modify crypto-algorithm

#180

Post by yatsyk »

sillysaurus2 wrote: post #163
yatsyk wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've not found any attempts to help them apart from this bug report. >TextSecure's interest is in security, whereas Telegram's interest seems to be in money and power I can't read minds or even their messenger logs so I can't comment what is their interest but I'd be interested to know why you think so > TextSecure completely safe app Just wrong. How could you call something "completely safe" or bug free? >Each of th…

Telegram seems to be interested in money and power because they've turned down offers from Moxie (the creator of TextSecure and a well-known cryptographer) to join forces. There's no reason to do that unless they were interested in money or power more than security. I didn't say TextSecure is completely safe. I said Telegram has been demonstrated to be broken. Telegram is prone to passive listening because their desi…

> I didn't say TextSecure is completely safe.

Yes you do. "TextSecure completely safe app" was copied from your message before you or someone else edited it. I've not typed it but copied exact phrase from your message.

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