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Having a Servant Is Not a Right

nytimes.com

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Re: Having a Servant Is Not a Right

#131

Post by genwin »

x0054 wrote: post #124
genwin wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Income taxes, enforced. India has plenty of money and resources, and would have more of both after adopting a minimum wage because labor would be better utilized. It might be hard but don't tell me it can't happen or that people will starve to death.

You are right. Step 1, fix the woefully broken legal system in India. Step 2, streamline the crippling and impossible to navigate bureaucracy. Step 3, create a functional income tax collection apparatus in a mostly cash society. Step 4, solve the drinking water and sewage problems. Step 5, convince the majority of the country inhabitants that the cast system is bad (they do not think so). ... Step X, implement an Cro…

There you go. I'd start with step 5. At the root level of India's problems is the widespread belief that not everyone deserves equal opportunity. The faster that belief is changed the faster the other steps will be achieved.

Re: Having a Servant Is Not a Right

#132

Post by smegel »

bane wrote: post #7

> Last week, I watched with bewilderment as India’s most vociferous talk show host, Arnab Goswami, repeatedly asked his guests if they expected an Indian diplomat who is paid $4,180 a month to pay her domestic servant $4,500 a month. Meanwhile an American guest, Lisa Curtis, a senior fellow at the Heritage Foundation, tried to make a point: “If somebody cannot afford to have domestic help, then they don’t have domest…

Your mechanic and most of the others will give you an itemized bill, and you can't order him to make you a cup of tea for free.

In India and the Middle East this concept of "servitude" is really just slavery - lower class people are basically owned by wealthy families for their entire lives, are are given bare sustenance in return for total control over their labor and time, without conditions or restraint over when and how their labor can be used. Furthermore their work "contracts" actually prevent them from leaving or "quitting", and the legal systems in those countries will actually enforce these contracts and essentially uphold ownership of these "servants" (as did the Indian high court in this case apparently).

In all the cases you are describing, the work is part of a regulated labor market, where there are conditions and laws against exploitation, that are actually enforced as has been witnessed in this case.

Re: Having a Servant Is Not a Right

#133

Post by bane »

maxerickson wrote: post #126
bane wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We still call all those people service providers. Well, I'm wondering if we're using "service providers" as a euphemism for certain classes of servants because we're uncomfortable with the word. I've never actually heard anybody in the U.S. say they have "servants", despite having a Au Pairs, Personal Assistants, Live-in gardeners etc. At what point does my maid, who I personally contract with become a servant rath…

Yes, I was sort of trying to point out that "service" has the same word root in there. I don't think I've ever had a conversation with someone that had an Au Pair or live-in gardener, so of course I haven't heard them talk about their servants. I've known people who were sort of uncomfortable about paying a maid (but I guess this was more rooted in the protestant work ethic than any sort of queasiness over servitude,…

Oh yeah, good point.

> I've known people who were sort of uncomfortable about paying a maid

We've also been very uncomfortable with the yard service and maid service because it seem like something we should be doing. But long hours and a continuously ugly yard and messy house eventually solved those debates.

Re: Having a Servant Is Not a Right

#134

Post by olavk »

wozniacki wrote: post #108
bitops wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh...as a Danish person, I think part of that distinction also is that Denmark has a really bad service culture compared to the US. It does seem to be changing. But I feel like Danes are a pretty proud (and/or headstrong) folk with very strong (and sometimes misguided, see Janteloven) notions around class and equality. I feel like many Danes who work in the service sector project this attitude that they're really ab…

Under Janteloven: The ten rules state: You're not to think you are anything special. You're not to think you are as good as us. You're not to think you are smarter than us. You're not to convince yourself that you are better than us. You're not to think you know more than us. You're not to think you are better than us. You're not to think you are good at anything. You're not to laugh at us. You're not to think anyone…

Hope you understand that this is not an actual law, but a piece of satire describing social norms in a smaller provincial town in the beginning of the twentieth century. This was a very different and much more traditional and hierarchical society, and the attitudes bitops describe more stem from the reaction against these norms which happened in the 60ies and 70ies.

Re: Having a Servant Is Not a Right

#135

Post by Havoc »

Having a maid/gardener etc is fairly common in most 3rd world countries. Often the wage is a bit on the dubious side, but I think most of our 1st world country hn people are misinterpreting this as intentionally malicious. The process usually involves asking some close friends/relatives what they pay & then paying similar amounts. The end result is that its market forces driven.

As for minimum wage - certainly. However it must be set according to the country. e.g. If you set the minimum wage in my country at what an American might think appropriate then you'd double unemployment overnight. "Living wage"...sure but one has to be realistic too - at some point you push people out of the formal economy & that point is very very low for 3rd world countries.

Re: Having a Servant Is Not a Right

#136

Post by Dylan16807 »

bane wrote: post #113
bjourne wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm curious though, where does the concept of "servant" actually end? Is my mechanic a servant? Or is he not because I go to his place for him to do the work instead of having him come to mine? A mechanic is a specialist. You likely can't repair your car so you have to purchase that service. Servants are just a plain time-to-money arbitrage. A maid isn't significantly better at vacuuming than you are, so you are ju…

> A mechanic is a specialist. Yeah, I think I agree with you. But playing devil's advocate, my handyman might be called a "Groundskeeper" or similar if he was full-time and a servant...and to me (who's not handy at all) he's a specialist as well.

'specialist' should really be measured in comparison to how well the average person or perhaps 85th percentile person can perform the job, not whether they're better than their employer.

Re: Having a Servant Is Not a Right

#137

Post by smegel »

credo wrote: post #127

I think it was wrong to strip-search and do cavity searches on the consular officer (in this case, a woman) "accused" of underpaying a maid. However,I'm not going to focus on that and I'm not going to quibble with some of the exaggerations in this column. Overall, I agree that Ms Khobragade must be prosecuted and the evidence clearly suggests that she is guilty. However, I find it astonishing that so many people (mos…

Well he may well have been conducting official business when the crash occurred, meaning it would be quite justified to claim diplomatic immunity. Underpaying a worker in a domestic situation has nothing to do with official consular business.

The US is taking a very strong stand that it will not tolerate abuse and exploitation in its borders, even under the guise or protection of diplomatic activity.

Re: Having a Servant Is Not a Right

#138

Post by Crito »

marquis wrote: post #115
bane wrote: post #7

> Last week, I watched with bewilderment as India’s most vociferous talk show host, Arnab Goswami, repeatedly asked his guests if they expected an Indian diplomat who is paid $4,180 a month to pay her domestic servant $4,500 a month. Meanwhile an American guest, Lisa Curtis, a senior fellow at the Heritage Foundation, tried to make a point: “If somebody cannot afford to have domestic help, then they don’t have domest…

>Growing up in the U.S., servants have a kind of old-world upper-class, if not crusty and exploitive, vibe. In parts of Mexico and South America I have seen lavish, large homes built for U.S. retirees, where the real estate agent indicated without shame that certain small and often un-windowed rooms were for live-in help. What would the Americans, who move into these homes, call the people (mostly women) who will inh…

I assume they would call them servants, nannies, or au pairs. The later two would be hard to get away with if they were retirees (no children I assume), they would be calling them that just to avoid calling them servants.

Just because some retirees retire to developing countries so that they can pretend to have old-money and have servants does not mean that having servants is viewed by Americans as normal.

I had a middle-class upbringing, (certainly not upper-middle, but money was rarely a source of stress or unease in my family, so not really lower-middle either). One of my aunt/uncles were very solidly upper-middle though, and had for several years a series of "au pairs" who were ostensibly in the US first and foremost to study. Even this wasn't "normal" to my family, the entire arrangement made us very uncomfortable.

Re: Having a Servant Is Not a Right

#139

Post by kamakazizuru »

wrongc0ntinent wrote: post #128
kamakazizuru wrote: post #81

The author shows a complete lack of understanding of India - and brings up completely unrelated topics (casteism?!) to support her already weak point. In fact - bringing up the Diplomats caste is her being racist (casteist? - dunno the right word but you know what I mean) herself. It's as if an American author were to say "well a few hundred years ago these black people were slaves - and now they dare to treat someon…

Your sample is too small. India is more of a fragmented subcontinent than a country. There is no "city like Bombay" (other than Mumbai).

eh... Bombay is Mumbai - and since the author referred to her life growing up in Bombay / Mumbai - the comparison applies. That said - Bangalore, Delhi, Kolkata, Ahmedabad, Chennai - are all comparable to a reasonable extend to Bombay.

Re: Having a Servant Is Not a Right

#140

Post by genwin »

credo wrote: post #127

I think it was wrong to strip-search and do cavity searches on the consular officer (in this case, a woman) "accused" of underpaying a maid. However,I'm not going to focus on that and I'm not going to quibble with some of the exaggerations in this column. Overall, I agree that Ms Khobragade must be prosecuted and the evidence clearly suggests that she is guilty. However, I find it astonishing that so many people (mos…

It's not straightforward hypocrisy when the legal system or jail system in the other country is substandard to the US's. That may be unlikely nowadays but it's something to consider.
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