N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite • Hacker News Board

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#101

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 21, 2013, 1:21 AM UTC

flexie wrote: post #28

fidotron wrote: post #7

The best bit here is right in the first paragraph: "and a European Union official involved in antitrust battles with American technology businesses." Spying on foreign governments because you think they might present a threat to you in terms of war/foreign policy is generally defensible (although many on here would disagree with that), while using the apparatus of the state to support select private enterprise throug…

In the last 20 years several American tech companies have grown huge with very little challenge from European antitrust or tax authorities. Google, Facebook, LinkedIn, Apple, Amazon, Intel, Microsoft... Rules regarding abuse of dominant position could have been applied much stricter. Some of these companies have 90-something percent market share on several of the geographic and product markets they operate in. But no…

[deleted]

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#102

Post by PavlovsCat » Sat, Dec 21, 2013, 1:22 AM UTC

wil421 wrote: post #50

mladenkovacevic wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny how you peg the Chinese industrial spying as very clear-cut and obviously malevolent, but grasp at straws to justify the Pertobas spying as somehow motivated by good-guy American trying to bust some organized crime ring.

Show me the slides I want to see the evidence myself. All I am seeing now is the words of various reporters. I am trying to grasp at something that would justify it. Its beyond belief that they are actually doing this. Who's the good guys in this world or are the "people" the only good guys left?

> Who's the good guys in this world or are the "people" the only good guys left?

Staat heißt das kälteste aller kalten Ungeheuer. Kalt lügt es auch; und diese Lüge kriecht aus seinem Munde: "Ich, der Staat, bin das Volk."

~

State is the name of the coldest of all cold monsters. Cold it lies, too; and this lie crawls out of its mouth: "I, the state, am the people."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#103

Post by alan_cx » Sat, Dec 21, 2013, 2:45 AM UTC

I cant believe people aren't shocked that they even spy on Israel's PM. To me that is stunning. I, clearly wrongly, assumed that where it counts the US and Israel are glued to the same page. So, why spy on them? Its almost like the NSA treating some US states as enemies to spy on. Does the US consider any nation a trusted ally? Well, clearly the US and Israel are not quite as chummy as I had previously thought.

BTW, is Snowden done yet? Is there a chance that we'll find out that the NSA spies on the US President and the UK Queen? (I'll take as a given that they spy on London Mayor Boris Johnson for pure entertainment value. Hell, even I'd do that.)

All we need now is the head line "NSA spies on NSA", and the whole thing will implode.

Sorry HN. Its just that it is getting so absurd, it has to be funny.

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#104

Post by pantalaimon » Sat, Dec 21, 2013, 2:58 AM UTC

tedunangst wrote: post #75

Zigurd wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowden revealed NSA hacked into Petrobras ahead of an important oilfield auction. The only use for that information would be setting bids. It's no small thing. Bids with insider information could cost Brasil tens of billions of dollars.

The only use for that information would be setting bids. Apart from one other use: verifying that competitors aren't bribing officials to win the auction.

How would that work?

"We have cought you cheating! We know because… (we've hacked your exchange)"

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#105

Post by tedunangst » Sat, Dec 21, 2013, 3:14 AM UTC

pantalaimon wrote: post #104

tedunangst wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only use for that information would be setting bids. Apart from one other use: verifying that competitors aren't bribing officials to win the auction.

How would that work? "We have cought you cheating! We know because… (we've hacked your exchange)"

Actually, yes. See the first two examples given in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial_...

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#106

Post by judk » Sat, Dec 21, 2013, 4:08 AM UTC

tedunangst wrote: post #105

pantalaimon wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would that work? "We have cought you cheating! We know because… (we've hacked your exchange)"

Actually, yes. See the first two examples given in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial_...

I wonder why there are no cases of NSA whistleblowing on bribes placed by American.companies in any foreign auctions... Because American companies don't cheat, or...?

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#107

Post by coldtea » Sat, Dec 21, 2013, 6:23 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #87

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spying on foreign governments because you think they might present a threat to you in terms of war/foreign policy is generally defensible, while using the apparatus of the state to support select private enterprise through espionage is not. I am genuinely curious why the former would be defensible while the latter not. The former in this case would trend toward causing (at some point) some level of death an destructi…

> I am genuinely curious why the former would be defensible while the latter not. Because the one is (supposedly) defensive tactic, the other is offensive. > Why would a country not have a program to enhance it's own industry through espionage? Because the country being a superpower gives all other countries an unfair advantage. Even if you don't believe in morality and ethics, so you don't care about that, this can…

Oops: "gives [compared to] all other countries an unfair advantage".

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#108

Post by chmars » Sat, Dec 21, 2013, 7:31 AM UTC

jahewson wrote: post #91

flexie wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the last 20 years several American tech companies have grown huge with very little challenge from European antitrust or tax authorities. Google, Facebook, LinkedIn, Apple, Amazon, Intel, Microsoft... Rules regarding abuse of dominant position could have been applied much stricter. Some of these companies have 90-something percent market share on several of the geographic and product markets they operate in. But no…

> The iphone costs more or less the same all over Europe as does the music and movies on it. It's supposed to, the European single market laws require that it costs the same in each country.

I have never heard of such a rule within the European Union. Do you have any source for that?

The iPhone in particular does not cost more or less the same all over Europe, if only because of varying VAT rates. Salaries are very different within Europe too, the ratio of average salaries is around 1:10.

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#109

Post by bobbydavid » Sat, Dec 21, 2013, 7:35 AM UTC

oscargrouch wrote: post #55

4354325425 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any evidence that the NSA distributes any proprietary information about Petrobras or other foreign industries? How would the NSA choose which US company would receive the information? A lottery?

> Is there any evidence that the NSA distributes any proprietary information about Petrobras or other foreign industries? Yes. the snowden revelations with tons of documents; i dont know what are you trying to defend here, but you are clearly very emotive in your argumentation line.. trying to dismiss everything without anything to back up your arguments.. are you under fire here?

Forgive me for asking, but as there are tons, can someone point the relevant bits out? I've been following the news and I haven't seen any.

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#110

Post by bobbydavid » Sat, Dec 21, 2013, 7:48 AM UTC

fidotron wrote: post #7

The best bit here is right in the first paragraph: "and a European Union official involved in antitrust battles with American technology businesses." Spying on foreign governments because you think they might present a threat to you in terms of war/foreign policy is generally defensible (although many on here would disagree with that), while using the apparatus of the state to support select private enterprise throug…

Many industries (food, steel, electronics, energy, mining) are considered to have military strategic importance.

For instance, Japan works very hard to grow rice even though it would be much cheaper to import rice from China. It's because not being able to feed your own population is bad in a war. Energy (oil) is the same way.

The line between military and industry is often not very clear.