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Telegram, a.k.a. “Stand back, we have Math PhDs”

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51–56 of 56 posts

Re: Telegram, a.k.a. “Stand back, we have Math PhDs”

#51
post #35

They could have made something like: the client generates a key pair, encrypts the public key with the server’s public key, sends it to the server with a nonce, and the server sends back the nonce encrypted with the client’s public key. Simple and easy. Just out of curiosity, is it really that easy if you're using verified components? I would naively assume (and hope) so, but then everyone tells me that crypto is fra…

Not really, that is also vulnerable to man in the middle attacks. You need cert pinning or a fool proof trust system to verify the server key.

In fact, the app ships with a bunch of RSA 2048 keys that are used for that part. But there is no revocation support.

Re: Telegram, a.k.a. “Stand back, we have Math PhDs”

#52

There is also a dialogue between author and Telegram happening in the comments as of right now.

Yes, with gems like this one: " We grew tired of “experts” too lazy to read the full documentation. " When asked about a diagram. With their attitude, it seems incredibly unlikely they'll ever have a secure product.

The author isn't exactly friendly either...

Re: Telegram, a.k.a. “Stand back, we have Math PhDs”

#53
That they have not made available a threat model is the kicker for me. Every time people start talking about security, whether it's their email or their house, inevitably they start going nuts with all the possibilities. They then leave real security against real threats at the door in order to deal with imagined ones that require far greater resources to secure against. I'd bet that many fortunes were made by security 'professionals' catering to these whims.

The threat model is the antidote to this tomfoolery. Before you even start to touch a primitive, sit down and think very hard about who you're trying to be secure against and what their available options for attacking you are. Then write this analysis down and make it a living document, referring to it constantly to make sure that what you're writing is actually protecting you from something and what and how it's doing that.

I'd go so far as to say that without such a document, a system cannot possibly be secure because it doesn't know what it's doing. What's more, the poor team in charge of maintaining and updating it is going to be forever behind the curve, reduced to putting out fires whenever they pop up, be it from external actors actually breaking their code or from their own ignorance introducing vulnerabilities that weren't there before because their updates didn't take into account the non-existent threat model.

Re: Telegram, a.k.a. “Stand back, we have Math PhDs”

#54

Why so smug? I've seen this attitude in all types of IT heads (sys admins easily being the worst of the bunch) over the years. What is it about techies that they come over so smug when pointing out deficiencies in others? I still have the shame and anger provoking memory of two techies sniggering not-so-openly at me because I didn't know about name service switch in UNIX because guess what, I don't know everything. W…

What is it about techies that they come over so smug when pointing out deficiencies in others?

Probably a response to the bold, did-no-wrong, we-worked-hard-and-that-should-count and generally arrogant attitude of the people they're criticizing.

Re: Telegram, a.k.a. “Stand back, we have Math PhDs”

#55
post #51
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, that is also vulnerable to man in the middle attacks. You need cert pinning or a fool proof trust system to verify the server key.

In fact, the app ships with a bunch of RSA 2048 keys that are used for that part. But there is no revocation support.

Yeah that's generally the downside of cert pinning / hardcoding. The upside is people can't install extra certs.

Re: Telegram, a.k.a. “Stand back, we have Math PhDs”

#56
post #50

Why so smug? I've seen this attitude in all types of IT heads (sys admins easily being the worst of the bunch) over the years. What is it about techies that they come over so smug when pointing out deficiencies in others? I still have the shame and anger provoking memory of two techies sniggering not-so-openly at me because I didn't know about name service switch in UNIX because guess what, I don't know everything. W…

I wrote that article, and I think you are right. That was not the right tone for a review of a new product, even if Telegram's attitude (in particular here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6913456 ) has been of denial and arrogance. I usually have no temper problem, but everytime someones proposes a new secure system and ignores the holes people point out, because that means I will need to spend months explaining…

Hi there geal,

Only noticed your reply now, two days late. That apology is big of you. Keep up the good work, you've got tons of visibility - I'd return to your site again, that's for sure - and I'd listen carefully to what you've got to say.

doffs cap

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