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N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

nytimes.com

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Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#31

Post by mladenkovacevic »

wil421 wrote: post #25
Zigurd wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowden revealed NSA hacked into Petrobras ahead of an important oilfield auction. The only use for that information would be setting bids. It's no small thing. Bids with insider information could cost Brasil tens of billions of dollars.

That could be a side effect of tapping into a network hub or something. Does Petrobas have any ties to organized crime? I dont see where it says they passed that info to American companies. Please dont think I am downplaying this I am just trying to understand why. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-braz...

It's funny how you peg the Chinese industrial spying as very clear-cut and obviously malevolent, but grasp at straws to justify the Pertobas spying as somehow motivated by good-guy American trying to bust some organized crime ring.

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#33

Post by mladenkovacevic »

Zigurd wrote: post #14

There are some curious things about the response to these revelations: 1. Zero "friendly" nations have gone beyond carping. If the NSA still thinks they can put the toothpaste back in the tube it's because nobody who matters has told them otherwise, much less acted on such a declaration. 2. Even more surprising is that zero small nations who are far down the "Eyes" hierarchy, have concluded they can't win, so they sh…

Somehow I have a feeling in federal government circles of smaller countries it is a quite bit more clear-cut on what your options are.

Either play along with the 14 eyes, or join some loose alliance with the BRIC countries.

The result of your decision, combined with your country's geo-political circumstances, could range from political/economic isolation and worst-case scenario military invasion, to mild prosperity in exchange for total colonialist-like obedience at the expense of your own citizens' full potential in prosperity and living standards.

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#34

Post by adventured »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #22
adventured wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that industrial spying by national agencies is rather common across the globe. The only difference here is the perception and magnifying glass / media spotlight.

Magnitude isn't a meaningful difference? Sounds like saying "everybody has an army. there is no difference" in response to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_e...

Magnitude variance is assumed. Nobody would be surprised that the Russian army can best the Georgian army due to the difference in scale. Nor that the Chinese army with its 1.2 million soldiers can best Vietnam. In the same vein, I don't think anybody has ever had an expectation that the multi-hundred billion dollar US military was going to be spying as much as the Danish military. I think it has been understood post WW2 that the American DoD does a lot of spying in general. The revelation is primarily the total invasiveness into civilian lives, and willingness to flout laws everywhere.

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#35

Post by frou_dh »

lio32 wrote: post #19

Gentle reminder: Google willingly co-operated with the NSA and provided direct access to their systems: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-... We can affect change by boycotting the services of Google and other tech giants. We all know that the Senate only listens to rich Corporate lobbyists rather than citizens.

I'm not sure "gentle" is the right word for creating throwaway accounts to post rephrasings of that daily. Do your cause more good by coming up with some noteworthy action.

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#36

Post by 4354325425 »

flexie wrote: post #28
fidotron wrote: post #7

The best bit here is right in the first paragraph: "and a European Union official involved in antitrust battles with American technology businesses." Spying on foreign governments because you think they might present a threat to you in terms of war/foreign policy is generally defensible (although many on here would disagree with that), while using the apparatus of the state to support select private enterprise throug…

In the last 20 years several American tech companies have grown huge with very little challenge from European antitrust or tax authorities. Google, Facebook, LinkedIn, Apple, Amazon, Intel, Microsoft... Rules regarding abuse of dominant position could have been applied much stricter. Some of these companies have 90-something percent market share on several of the geographic and product markets they operate in. But no…

What did all of that have to do with the NSA?

How would US espionage force the EU from prosecuting or legislating against these companies?

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#37

Post by mercurial »

wil421 wrote: post #20
sentenza wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has really dropped the ball here. We, here in Germany, have a mainstream political party whose leaders are blindly americophile. The last and current government are dominated by that party. From the beginning of the crisis, these people loudly blamed the victim, accusing NSA-critics of anti-americanism and telling us that "the NSA discussion is over". Then, with time, the industrial espionage stories started t…

Could you provide some information where the NSA conducted Industrial Espionage? Merkel is a politician so I could see why she was targeted. As far as I know China is the only one being blamed for Industrial Espionage. NSA is snooping on citizens and interest groups. Note: I am no way in favor of any snooping on any countries citizens foreign or domestic.

> As far as I know China is the only one being blamed for Industrial Espionage.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I think the only country not doing industrial espionage must be Somalia.

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#38

Post by joelcollinsdc »

lio32 wrote: post #19

Gentle reminder: Google willingly co-operated with the NSA and provided direct access to their systems: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-... We can affect change by boycotting the services of Google and other tech giants. We all know that the Senate only listens to rich Corporate lobbyists rather than citizens.

i thought it was determined that the access was obtained by tapping unencrypted interlinks between datacenters? can you provide citations of the 'willingness' part of this?

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#39

Post by 4354325425 »

Zigurd wrote: post #23
wil421 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you provide some information where the NSA conducted Industrial Espionage? Merkel is a politician so I could see why she was targeted. As far as I know China is the only one being blamed for Industrial Espionage. NSA is snooping on citizens and interest groups. Note: I am no way in favor of any snooping on any countries citizens foreign or domestic.

Snowden revealed NSA hacked into Petrobras ahead of an important oilfield auction. The only use for that information would be setting bids. It's no small thing. Bids with insider information could cost Brasil tens of billions of dollars.

Is there any evidence that the NSA distributes any proprietary information about Petrobras or other foreign industries?

How would the NSA choose which US company would receive the information? A lottery?

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#40

Post by 4354325425 »

Zigurd wrote: post #14

There are some curious things about the response to these revelations: 1. Zero "friendly" nations have gone beyond carping. If the NSA still thinks they can put the toothpaste back in the tube it's because nobody who matters has told them otherwise, much less acted on such a declaration. 2. Even more surprising is that zero small nations who are far down the "Eyes" hierarchy, have concluded they can't win, so they sh…

Isn't Brazil doing just that (#2)? I thought they were planning to build fiber lines directly to Europe, and implementing a domestic secure email system. Good for them, by the way.
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