Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer • Hacker News Board

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#311

Post by conanbatt » Fri, Dec 20, 2013, 9:52 AM UTC

mrjatx wrote: post #154

tikhonj wrote: post #134

I've always felt the culture of hiding salaries was doing a significant disservice to employees. It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. In turn, this makes the entire labor market less efficient for the employee. This also makes the employer less accountable to the employees. The employer can easily pay somebody significantly more or les…

I disagree completely. You should, as the potential employee, be well aware of the market pay and what you are willing to be paid to perform the job that you're applying for. Not to mention their job postings actually list a salary window ($88-110k for Backend/Frontend). What the person sitting next to you is paid should bear absolutely no impact on your life or your work ethic. If you're happy to make $88k and the g…

If you dont have a problem with someone making more or less money than you in the same company as you, why would you ever mind to make it public.

Is it because you fear people will resent you if they know your salary? Are you getting bullied by your HR department because of it? I doubt so. If someone makes a decision because of he has more accurate information, i have to believe its going to be a better decision.

This is a very basic case of information asymmetry and it always benefits the one with more information.

Do I agree with showing salary by name? I dont, so directly. But the mindset on the policy is healthy and can only sin from being naive.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#312

Post by conanbatt » Fri, Dec 20, 2013, 9:57 AM UTC

Dartanion7 wrote: post #308

mrjatx wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree completely. You should, as the potential employee, be well aware of the market pay and what you are willing to be paid to perform the job that you're applying for. Not to mention their job postings actually list a salary window ($88-110k for Backend/Frontend). What the person sitting next to you is paid should bear absolutely no impact on your life or your work ethic. If you're happy to make $88k and the g…

Exactly. I know precisely what I'm worth because I poll the market frequently. I don't need my employer to push mandatory transparency to know what I'm worth; in fact, I feel the informational asymmetry actually benefits me , because my employer doesn't know how much it'd cost to replace me (unless they're interviewing potential replacements as often as I'm speaking with recruiters / getting inbound interest from oth…

This can only be true in a mom&pop company size. Any company with a decent staff management know a lot more than any employee: they make constant offers that get accepted or reject, and see more candidates than you ever will, even if you are in 100% of the interviews.

The information asymmetry you think benefits you is only protecting you , at best, from getting something worse than other employees. Thats not a success. A transparent system would mean everybody gets the benefits of that.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#313

Post by yogo » Fri, Dec 20, 2013, 10:47 AM UTC

ckeck wrote: post #301

suprgeek wrote: post #55

Excellent concept - but one major Caveat. Why in the world would you publish it for all the world to see? Keep it internal to the company - you have an expectation of privacy from your employer and this post just ruined it completely. I hope they got written signed releases from every one of those folks whose private info they broadcast to the world.

Federal Government employees have their pay publicly visible, at least many of them. Some Universities do the same. I'm not sure why this is so mind-blowing for some. Also, keep in mind that they clearly set the opposite expectation about privacy with their employees and (from what they say), cleared it with everyone first.

Given the fact that federal employees are paid by tax payers (the employer) then the tax payers should know how much they are paying them.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#314

Post by aestra » Fri, Dec 20, 2013, 11:05 AM UTC

abalone wrote: post #302

tikhonj wrote: post #134

I've always felt the culture of hiding salaries was doing a significant disservice to employees. It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. In turn, this makes the entire labor market less efficient for the employee. This also makes the employer less accountable to the employees. The employer can easily pay somebody significantly more or les…

A slight problem with that thesis is that employees are generally not forbidden from discussing their salary. Rather they choose not to. Some consider it personal info. Maybe they shouldn't, but they do. From that perspective, this could feel like the company forcing a decision on their employees that they would rather make for themselves. I would be a little concerned about injecting a culture with that.. it's a bit…

Employees are generally forbidden from discussing their salary. Most places I've worked, it has been told to me at promotion and raise time not to disclose my salary to other employees. It probably isn't enforceable however, just the goons trying to keep that info private that they want private.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#315

Post by aestra » Fri, Dec 20, 2013, 11:37 AM UTC

mrjatx wrote: post #154

tikhonj wrote: post #134

I've always felt the culture of hiding salaries was doing a significant disservice to employees. It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. In turn, this makes the entire labor market less efficient for the employee. This also makes the employer less accountable to the employees. The employer can easily pay somebody significantly more or les…

I disagree completely. You should, as the potential employee, be well aware of the market pay and what you are willing to be paid to perform the job that you're applying for. Not to mention their job postings actually list a salary window ($88-110k for Backend/Frontend). What the person sitting next to you is paid should bear absolutely no impact on your life or your work ethic. If you're happy to make $88k and the g…

There are plenty of people already aware of their coworker's salaries; government employees, including military. It isn't like you don't know some salary info, you know your boss gets paid more for example.

>You should, as the potential employee, be well aware of the market pay and what you are willing to be paid to perform the job that you're applying for.

And when you know what everyone makes you have a much better grasp of the market pay, and if what you were offered was fair. If they tell you "we only pay x" you can only take their word on it if they are keeping their salary data private. If not you have more room for negotiations.

And your example of unfair pay doesn't jive well with me. It is still wrong to take advantage of someone just because they let you take advantage of them. I think a lot of cases of grossly unfair pay fall into that category.

We are dealing with adults here.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/my-boss-revealed-everyones-salar...

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-if-you-knew-everyones-salar...

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/why-are-salary-ranges-secret/

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#316

Post by aestra » Fri, Dec 20, 2013, 12:07 PM UTC

syllogism wrote: post #269

swombat wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would only be upset because you currently work in a company with a culture that doesn't value transparency as a core value. If you worked in a company like Buffer or GrantTree, you'd be wondering why others are so secretive about their salaries, and find yourself more and more disliking the idea of working for a company which is not transparent. Habit is a powerful thing. Change your surroundings and you'll chang…

If you've never understood the idea of "privilege" before, your attitude of "oh what, this doesn't work for everyone else? It works for me!" is something that gets discussed a lot. Some examples of the many, many situations people can find themselves in where public salary disclosure would be a major problem: - You have family members who have substance abuse issues. It's common for addicts to steal from family membe…

I understand your concerns, however there are so many people who already have their salary info public. For example government employees including military. There is already some idea if you know what someone does. If I work fast food, everyone knows I am going to earn around minium wage. Most people know a ballpark figure for most jobs, I have a doctor friend an administrative assistant friend, nurse friend, police friend, and someone who works in retail. I know about what they all make income wise and they know about what I make as well.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#317

Post by scotty79 » Fri, Dec 20, 2013, 12:14 PM UTC

gaadd33 wrote: post #287

scotty79 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Aside from that, open salaries are pretty naive idea, if not completely dumb and dangerous. In Sweden all salaries are public, look how awful they are doing.

How does that work if you are a consultant for example? Or, not sure how common they are in Sweden, a salesperson paid only on commission? I guess I'm curious how it deals with extremely variable salaries or is it just last year's that's public?

They just make your income tax form public.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#318

Post by vasilipupkin » Fri, Dec 20, 2013, 12:38 PM UTC

brandoncapecci wrote: post #253

kenrikm wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is a Senior iOS engineer (Andy) on a "Intermediate: 1.1X" multiplier? - you can't be Senior and be intermediate in my book. Seems he needs his multiplier upped to the proper level. $107k is low for a iOS Dev in the Bay Area.

That's the first thing I noticed too. Senior iOS Dev making 1k more than a CHO? Only their employees know the culture and value everyone provides but that sort of thing would make me uncomfortable.

He may have taken more equity for a lower salary. I might be wrong but publishing everyone's information like this seems so dumb....focus on your startup not on gimmicky unproven hr practices

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#319

Post by gjm11 » Fri, Dec 20, 2013, 12:49 PM UTC

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #305

wamatt wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>EDIT: As an interesting additional note, all salaries (beyond a token minimum) at Berkeley (and the whole UC system) are publicly available at http://ucpay.globl.org/ . Fascinating, I had no idea this was public. Looking briefly at the results, it reveals a curious data point: UC's highest paid employee is not, as one might expect, the chancellor or dean, but in fact the sports coach ($2,884,880 gross)

The highest paid public employee in something like 49/50 states is a sports coach.

See e.g. http://deadspin.com/infographic-is-your-states-highest-paid-... which shows: five college presidents, five heads of particular faculties (medicine, law), one plastic surgeon, and everyone else a football or basketball coach.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#320

Post by Uchikoma » Fri, Dec 20, 2013, 12:57 PM UTC

As a "boss" I'd love this.

The only downside I see is that some people will be disappointed because the salary reflects their skills and the value the company puts in them. For some this is hard to take if they are in the bottom 20% of people in their peer group.

Said that, it's probably a good idea to start with this compared to introducing this later.