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Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

open.bufferapp.com

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Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#211

Post by wpietri »

JonFish85 wrote: post #29

Let's say I'm a competitor, and I find that Niel (randomly picked) is someone I want to hire. All else being equal, I offer him $100k (website says he's making $88k). He comes to his boss to say "I like it here, can you match it?" What does his boss do? Especially, if he's valuable to the company... What if I have a very specialized skill that doesn't fit nicely into your matrix? Let's say market pay for my skill is…

As a boss I'd love this.

It's my job making sure everybody is paid fairly. If Niel came to me and told me about a competitive offer, I'd say, "well, let's look at the market; maybe we've fallen behind." And then we'd sit down and refresh the data that drove our current pay levels. If things had changed significantly, then it would be time for raises. If not, then we'd talk about why a company might be paying well above market, and whether it's the right choice for Niel to go there.

For specialized skills, yeah, a new matrix category's the obvious fix. If co-workers are the kind of people that freak out at market economics, then it means we're not educating them well, so that's something worth fixing.

I think it's important to remember that secret salaries rarely stay secret, so the choice isn't between full knowledge and zero knowledge; it's between full knowledge and half knowledge plus substantial speculation.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#213

Post by yeukhon »

lem72 wrote: post #208
yeukhon wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how do you deal with the newcomers? As you grow you keep getting more and more and that system they have will be harder to implement and eventually may end up just like other companies. It isn't something they shouldn't be thinking right now. It does make the current employee happy, but will this work when 10 more people are joining, 20, 30?

They can adjust when it doesn't make sense for the company. Those unhappy with the changes can choose to stay or leave.

> Those unhappy with the changes can choose to stay or leave.

That's harsh. I am arguing that fantasying the success of this payscale doesn't mean the company is not responsible for the welfare of the employees as the company scales and grows.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#214

Post by troupe »

sliverstorm wrote: post #121
thenmar wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fear is that it will create animosity by making the information so accessible. On some level, the junior-level dev knows he's not making as much as the guy with the PhD in an esoteric mission critical topic, but he has a kind of plausible deniability that lets him avoid thinking about it. If everyone's making 80k and everyone knows that Jane The Expert is making 300k, there's going to be friction. "Hey Ja…

Worked as an intern once, had one of the full-timers complimenting my work and saying I was just as sharp/skilled as him at the job. I knew he was getting paid a lot more than me. The multiplier was probably a whole number . Yes, he was on-call and I wasn't. Yes, there are always other good reasons too. But it still rankled to be doing close to the same work, and paid so much less. As you say I made sure to stay igno…

I think you are trying to say that he made at least 2x what you were making. I would be very surprised to find an intern making more than half of what the person they are interning under makes and normally I'd expect it to be much less.

Typically you aren't working at an internship because you have a proven track record of skills in a certain area. That is kind of the point of doing an internship. And having a proven track record is something employers are willing to pay a lot more money for.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#215

Post by elwell »

suprgeek wrote: post #55

Excellent concept - but one major Caveat. Why in the world would you publish it for all the world to see? Keep it internal to the company - you have an expectation of privacy from your employer and this post just ruined it completely. I hope they got written signed releases from every one of those folks whose private info they broadcast to the world.

http://open.bufferapp.com/introducing-open-salaries-at-buffe...

(wait for it to load and take you to the specifically linked comment)

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#217

Post by lotsofpulp »

zmitri wrote: post #140
stephencanon wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$150k is only middle class in NYC in the weakest possible sense of the phrase “middle class”. Even if we restrict to manhattan, $150k puts you in the top ~20% of household income (which often includes two wage-earners). Median income in Manhattan is right around $70k. I know that nearly everyone in America (except maybe for Bill Gates) believes that they are middle class, but at some stage one needs to accept that if…

Yep. For less than that amount I had a floor of a brownstone in Brooklyn, 20-30 minute commute via subway, paid off 10 year student loans in It's that's "only" middle class, the world is in serious trouble.

What does the term of a loan have to do with anything? It's a meaningless metric in your context.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#218

Post by dxbydt »

Back when I was a really dumb undergrad, I did some work for a company & they asked me where to mail the cheque. I gave them the University address. So I was chatting with my professor & we walk by the mailboxes, and by pure reflex, I reach out into my mailbox & grab my mail & he does the same & we say our goodbyes & go home.

Now, I open the mail at home & am staring at my professor's salary! You see, the secretary had switched our mails by mistake because our last names began with the same letter. I was quite stunned by the number - it was a measly sum, and I did the math & worked out that the Professor's salary was about 60K. Now, I knew my Professor was an important CS scholar & had tons of papers to his name, but that low number irked me. After the PhD and all these papers, just 60K...why..?

At the same time, my Professor had also gone home & opened his mail & was staring at my salary! So much money for some dumb undergrad who was basically an average student & had no major publications or research! He was quite bothered.

The next day, we had a very awkward exchange of mails. But from then on, the student-teacher dynamic completely changed. I suddenly began getting B's instead of C's & even occasional A-. He probably felt, hey if this guy can get so much money in the market, he probably knows his shit. otoh, I began to respect him & the CS program less & less. So I still have to spend 3 more years & take 45 more credits & do the qualifiers to get the PhD & then write all these papers & for what..60K ? That was my attitude at the time.

Needless to say, I dropped out of the PhD pgm with a Masters & went to work full-time. That was the stupidest thing I ever did, but I just didn't know it then. Now, I look back & think...hey if I hadn't known about his salary, I'd have slogged it through & actually gotten my PhD instead of half-assing it out here :(

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#219

Post by nsxwolf »

wpietri wrote: post #206
lancewiggs wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you're happy to make $88k and the guy doing the same job next to you is making $110k, I don't see any problem One problem is that the first person is often female, not white or foreign. Another is the demotivational effect when the first person eventually does find out they are underpaid versus colleagues or the market - and they generally do. And then they will leave. It gets worse when the lower paid person is…

100% agreed. I absolutely hate salary systems that give an advantage to people who are pushy, jerky, entitled, or privileged. Some of the best developers I know are pleasant, friendly, modest, don't like confrontation, and pay more attention to the work and the team than how much they're pocketing. Those people shouldn't be paid less.

Is asking for what you want pushy? I'm not sure we want to be praising people for being good little doormats.

Learn to defend your work and ask for what you deserve.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#220

Post by dinkumthinkum »

mrjatx wrote: post #154
tikhonj wrote: post #134

I've always felt the culture of hiding salaries was doing a significant disservice to employees. It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. In turn, this makes the entire labor market less efficient for the employee. This also makes the employer less accountable to the employees. The employer can easily pay somebody significantly more or les…

I disagree completely. You should, as the potential employee, be well aware of the market pay and what you are willing to be paid to perform the job that you're applying for. Not to mention their job postings actually list a salary window ($88-110k for Backend/Frontend). What the person sitting next to you is paid should bear absolutely no impact on your life or your work ethic. If you're happy to make $88k and the g…

I have you ever thought that maybe human beings are not computer programs that you have written and so therefore there may be a reason someone may be unhappy someone sitting next them makes 20% more for the same work? You act as if it is some logical fallacy because you were naive enough to accept the smaller amount or something. I'm not surprised. This kind of reasoning is very common on here.
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