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Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

open.bufferapp.com

131–140 of 352 posts

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#131

Let's say I'm a competitor, and I find that Niel (randomly picked) is someone I want to hire. All else being equal, I offer him $100k (website says he's making $88k). He comes to his boss to say "I like it here, can you match it?" What does his boss do? Especially, if he's valuable to the company... What if I have a very specialized skill that doesn't fit nicely into your matrix? Let's say market pay for my skill is…

>What if I have a very specialized skill that doesn't fit nicely into your matrix?

Oooh, or what if there's a dragon[1], and I need to be paid extra money so I can spend it on dragon-slaying gear? If you really deserve extra money, the conversation goes like this:

"Why do you make more than me?" "Because my job is harder."

Fun fact: you're not that special. Wage secrecy is good for skilled negotiators and bad for everyone else; being a skilled negotiator does not, however, ethically or morally entitle you to make more than other people. It just allows you to get away with it, and it's trivially unfair.

[1]: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2207833/

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#132

Does anyone have an opinion on how these numbers square with market rates? I make $113k/year as a juniorish engineer at a VC backed startup in SV. Am I hilariously overcompensated?

$113k/year for a junior engineer is definitely overcompensated even for SV. Congrats. :)

software engineer 1: http://www1.salary.com/CA/San-Francisco/Software-Engineer-I-...

software engineer 2: http://www1.salary.com/CA/San-Francisco/Software-Engineer-II...

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#133
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked in finance and made less than that in salary. It's enough for a luxurious existence in NYC provided you don't have children. I'm not sure whether or not they have children, but that's a lot.

$150k is middle class in NYC. If you work in Manhattan, it's a small place with a short commute or a normal-size place (by national standards) with a long commute. If you don't work in Manhattan or can work from home most of the time, you can have a pretty luxurious lifestyle, yes. Also, being single with no one to support isn't the average case. I'd argue we should assume that each working person supports one other…

$150k is only middle class in NYC in the weakest possible sense of the phrase “middle class”. Even if we restrict to manhattan, $150k puts you in the top ~20% of household income (which often includes two wage-earners). Median income in Manhattan is right around $70k. I know that nearly everyone in America (except maybe for Bill Gates) believes that they are middle class, but at some stage one needs to accept that if you make whole-number multiples above the median wage, you are at the very least “upper middle class” or “well off”. To pretend otherwise is frankly a bit insulting to the actual middle class.

Yes, there are people making vastly more than $150k, but that doesn’t change the fact that it puts one solidly in the upper quartile.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#134
I've always felt the culture of hiding salaries was doing a significant disservice to employees. It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. In turn, this makes the entire labor market less efficient for the employee.

This also makes the employer less accountable to the employees. The employer can easily pay somebody significantly more or less than they contribute, and the rest of the team cannot really say anything about this.

Now, there are some cultural reasons to do this--preventing jealousy, hiding inequality. But it really feels like a social band-aid, a temporary solution hiding the symptoms but not the underlying problem. Besides, everyone ends up having a reasonable guess as to who makes more and who makes less anyhow! The same dynamics develop, just with more uncertainty.

On the other hand, making salaries public takes these problems head-on. Inequality isn't bad in and of itself; some is basically necessary. But hiding that fact doesn't really help anyone. Instead, forcing people to see it head-on, deal with it and talk about it is probably a better solution.

I really applaud Buffer and the general movement towards transparency. I think it's a very healthy cultural progression and hope it catches on more widely, so that people stop having knee-jerk reactions to salary information.

EDIT: As an interesting additional note, all salaries (beyond a token minimum) at Berkeley (and the whole UC system) are publicly available at http://ucpay.globl.org/.

I've looked up various professors at the ParLab (where I did some undergraduate research). The fact that their salaries range from ~120k to ~350k did not change my perspective of anyone and did not seem to affect the lab's culture at all.

Essentially, I'd be perfectly happy to see this outside of public universities.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#135
post #2

It’s one thing to have a transparent salary policy, it’s a whole another world to publicly blog about people’s salary with a link to their Twitter account. I hope all employees agreed to have their salary published on the buffer blog. Kudos to them for trying something different.

I never understood the hypocrisy about hiding your salary.

Asymmetrical information = leverage

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#136
This is only halfway to true transparency. And also halfway to the bureaucracy of most large companies.

The other half to get to full transparency is having clear, measurable definitions of experience, and clear milestones of how to advance in seniority.

And that relates to how this starts to resemble corporate salary structures -- the key difference being that these guys have a defined number instead of a "salary grade". but the idea of plugging positions and experience levels and seniority into a salary structure is key to almost every large company. And as a result, most of the corporate angst over salaries starts to boil down to questions like: "Why is he a programmer IV, while she is a programmer III.", "How do I advance from being a Staff Software Engineer to an Advisory Software Engineer?"

This structure doesn't necessarily remove questions (and sometimes conflict) over career advancement, it just moves the discussion away from money, and towards labels and definitions.

And as some comments mentioned, there are cases where you really want to hire someone whose salary requirements do not match your structure. You may get into sticky situations like having a great coder, but you would have to make him a Lead, or a VP to actually make him fit your structure. And maybe you don't want them to have that level of leadership, because that is not their skill set. So you end up having to decide -- Is this salary structure more important than making those hires, or are you willing to let potentially great hires get away because this structure is more important to the company than those people?

That decision is not one that I will second-guess - I would think that these types of issues and scenarios, as well as other issues raised in the comments, have probably already been debated internally before this decision was reached.

But that would be an interesting follow-up post -- to hear about what discussions and debates went on before making this decision, what the expected impacts will be, why decisions were made, and what levels of growth are expected to invoke changes in this structure.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#137

Let's say I'm a competitor, and I find that Niel (randomly picked) is someone I want to hire. All else being equal, I offer him $100k (website says he's making $88k). He comes to his boss to say "I like it here, can you match it?" What does his boss do? Especially, if he's valuable to the company... What if I have a very specialized skill that doesn't fit nicely into your matrix? Let's say market pay for my skill is…

> Let's say I'm a competitor, and I find that Niel (randomly picked) is someone I want to hire. All else being equal, I offer him $100k (website says he's making $88k). He comes to his boss to say "I like it here, can you match it? This happens all the time anyways, hiding the salary of the employee isn't going to make any difference in most cases. And is it so hard to guess what some (say iOS engineer) earns? The sa…

I think a big part of the problem is that people generally aren't good at judging the value of other's contributions unless they are working directly with them or managing them (and even then, hit or miss).

Having salaries be completely open invites comparison even when there is a lack of information. Bob the Developer in XYZ team makes 20k more than me, is that fair? Maybe, but I don't really know, and I can see that creating friction with the right (wrong?) personalities.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#138

Just trying to compare here with my European salary.. How much of this do you get to take home, ie. what part of it can you spend on food, clothing, housing etc. after takes? What about health insurance, is it provided for?

Roughly - Expect someone making $100k in the SFO area (high state and taxes compared to many parts of the country) to pay about 20-25% in a few federal taxes, and 8-10% in state taxes. So the take home pay would be around $65k-$72k, before any retirement contributions etc. In the US, healthcare is provided in a professional/fulltime position like these (maybe not the bootcampers). Figure $150-300 a month for healthca…

Okay, thanks for the info. I have health insurance (great nationwide social security, and additional health coverage for me and my partner provided by my employer), a company car (audi a6) with fuel card and make about the same as the CEO, but pay close to 50% in taxes. Still, not that bad at all apparently... (Even though it's hard to compare. Cost of living, vacation days, all make a difference.)

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#139
post #71
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. The founders of my company (including me) are paid less than almost everyone else that works with us. I know few rigorous investors that would stand to pay their CEO/founders more than ~80k a year, at least until it's clear the company is maturing. Also, as a founder with significant equity, I'd much rather put as much of my salary that I can spare (My wife and I need to eat, pay rent, etc.) to go towards b…

Buffer is posting $2M annual revenue this year, if I recall correctly. Their paychecks aren't being signed by investors -- they're being signed by customers.

Given that the listed salaries total 1.7M, which ignores payroll taxes and benefits, and they presumably have at least some expenses beyond payroll, at least part of their paychecks are likely coming from investment.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$150k is middle class in NYC. If you work in Manhattan, it's a small place with a short commute or a normal-size place (by national standards) with a long commute. If you don't work in Manhattan or can work from home most of the time, you can have a pretty luxurious lifestyle, yes. Also, being single with no one to support isn't the average case. I'd argue we should assume that each working person supports one other…

$150k is only middle class in NYC in the weakest possible sense of the phrase “middle class”. Even if we restrict to manhattan, $150k puts you in the top ~20% of household income (which often includes two wage-earners). Median income in Manhattan is right around $70k. I know that nearly everyone in America (except maybe for Bill Gates) believes that they are middle class, but at some stage one needs to accept that if…

Yep. For less than that amount I had a floor of a brownstone in Brooklyn, 20-30 minute commute via subway, paid off 10 year student loans in It's that's "only" middle class, the world is in serious trouble.
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