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Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

reuters.com

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Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#111

Post by shin_lao »

sleepyK wrote: post #90

The Gripen is simply the most cost effective choice of aircraft.... It already uses a lot of American technology, so backdoors probably exist, but it is a newer design than the old airframe of the FA-18, and it's easier to service than the Rafale. The IAF had conducted multiple tests during their MMRCA competition, and Rafale, Typhoon and Gripen came out as a equally matched, with some saying that the Typhoon was an…

I agree with everything you said, but a minor correction: the Rafale has not been exported yet, India has yet to acquire it.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#112

Post by [deleted] »

jeltz wrote: post #62
flexie wrote: post #6

Maybe Saab won because they had a better offer. And maybe Boing usually wins these deals because they have the backing of large intelligence agencies. Who knows.

Could be. A popular theory is that in Norway Saab lost due to diplomatic pressure from the US. "In the fall of 08, we invited a number of USG officials to visit Oslo to make the public case on why the F-35 is an excellent choice, and the private case on why the choice of aircraft will have an impact on the bilateral relationship (see refs A,B)." https://www.wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08OSLO670_a.html

[deleted]

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#113

Post by msantos »

zorked wrote: post #80
msantos wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it can, I know that for a fact. It doesn't normally do it because it would blow the agents covers and so they rely on "Policia Federal" to carry out arrests.

Their own website is wrong then. Question 10 here says they do not have police powers and thus cannot arrest people: http://www.abin.gov.br/modules/mastop_publish/?tac=Perguntas...

  > they do not have police powers and thus cannot arrest people
Let's face it, that's not exactly what their website says. A translation would be more like ... policing is beyond their "job scope" and detaining, arresting and interrogating are activities incompatible with the Intelligence work they do - for obvious reasons.

So, saying that they don't detain nor arrest people is fair point. Although they could detain and so could any other Brazilian citizen detain any person caught red handed (Latin In flagrante delicto) as stated in the Brazilian constitution.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#115

Post by pauljburke »

fiatmoney wrote: post #11
rosser wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Claiming that the NSA scandal is the primary reason for the Saab win is an overly US-centric view. From TFA: "Until earlier this year, Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet had been considered the front runner... "The NSA problem ruined it for the Americans," a Brazilian government source said on condition of anonymity." Does it remain a "US-centric view" when Brazil is the party saying, "Because NSA"?

Even if the NSA's spying program ended up not affecting the outcome of the fighter decision, it can still be worthwhile to claim that it did if they have an independent goal of reducing that program.

I think the NSA would know if that was the case and be able to pass that information along.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#116

Post by chris_wot »

mcosta wrote: post #60
tn13 wrote: post #34

I don't see how NSA scandal should affect this deal. You dont snap such major deals because you want to insult someone. That is childish. However if Brazil believed that US manufactures might help NSA in planting backdoors, malware into their equipment they could have simply stated it more publicly and done even greater damage to American companies. The weapon manufacturers + US government nexus has changed world pol…

I'm pretty confident in 20 years those countries will be 15 years behind USA weapons.

I seem to recall another empire once said that the sun would never set over it.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#117

Post by atmosx »

jeltz wrote: post #58
cylinder wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People need to realize that companies like Boeing, GE, etc. are hardly even viewed as "American" overseas. We (Americans) like to think they are, but these companies are decidedly multinational with huge operations in many, many countries that employ thousands. They also make lots, if not the majority, of their revenue in non-US markets. Their headquarters may be in the US (not always), but they could easily migrate…

Swede here: Boeing and GE are viewed as about as American a company can get.

Greek here, I'd like to add Coca-Cola on that list.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#119

Post by atmosx »

mcosta wrote: post #60
tn13 wrote: post #34

I don't see how NSA scandal should affect this deal. You dont snap such major deals because you want to insult someone. That is childish. However if Brazil believed that US manufactures might help NSA in planting backdoors, malware into their equipment they could have simply stated it more publicly and done even greater damage to American companies. The weapon manufacturers + US government nexus has changed world pol…

I'm pretty confident in 20 years those countries will be 15 years behind USA weapons.

Really? Back in 1999 I could not have imagined that although in 2008 Georgia would invade S. Ossetia with the blessings of the USA, will get slapped by the Russian army that way and the USA will just ... do nothing about it.

Nor that in 2013 an NSA employee will be in Russia embarrassing the USA like this, without the USA doing nothing.

It's not that Obama is good and G. W. Bush is bad. It's more that the times are A changin'.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#120

Post by FridayWithJohn »

_djo_ wrote: post #5

Claiming that the NSA scandal is the primary reason for the Saab win is an overly US-centric view. While there's evidence that Boeing's chances were hurt by the NSA revelations, it's not true that Boeing was a clear favourite. Both Saab and Dassault had presented strong bids and were considered serious contenders, particularly as both offered much higher industrial participation and technology sharing than Boeing and…

Not true. When it comes to aspects in defence you have to be 100% sure that it is secure and that there are no backdoors. I believe that because the NSA sees itself as "above the law" that this sort of action of losing billions of dollars in trade might be the only real way that things change.
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