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Research shows how MacBook Webcams can spy on their users without warning

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Re: Research shows how MacBook Webcams can spy on their users without warning

#171

Post by pasbesoin »

greglindahl wrote: post #134
superuser2 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does tape actually provide enough impedance to prevent surveillance through your microphones? Seems like all an attacker would have to do is amplify (and possibly filter) the audio a bit.

I turned up the mic all the way, did a skype test call. I could hear myself if I shouted (input level=0). If I talked at a normal volume level, it was audible (and the input level showed as 2/15. I might try a couple of layers of tape... EDIT: Yeah, 2nd layer of tape = 0 input level even if I shout really, really loudly. You can't imagine how much my coworkers are enjoying this experimentation!

I wondered about tape along with a suitable sound-dampening material, so this "seat-of-the-pants" experiment is of interest to me.

I'd want something more certain for a higher security situation, but this might do me for some "casual" use cases.

Re: Research shows how MacBook Webcams can spy on their users without warning

#172

Post by [deleted] »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #81
SiVal wrote: post #30

I want hardware on/off switches for camera, microphone, wifi, bluetooth, and maybe even external speakers. These should be power switches, not switches that make a polite request to firmware for the firmware to act as if the devices are off.

I'd pay someone $10 if I could figure out a way to make sure that my macbook never plays the "I AM NOW TURNING ON" sound.

[deleted]

Re: Research shows how MacBook Webcams can spy on their users without warning

#173

Post by [deleted] »

kyzyl wrote: post #36
lucaspiller wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any ideas why they changed it? Surely the circuit would be simpler like this rather than having the LED hooked up to the microchip and software controlling it.

If you have the LED hooked up in parallel with the chip, then you can't really do any fancy indication things like blink the LED, change colour (voltage level) etc. It's possible that the engineers wanted to maintain that flexibility. Second, if the LED fails to a short your camera won't get any power. That means an expensive component appears to be broken when it's only a very cheap component, and you have no way to…

[deleted]

Re: Research shows how MacBook Webcams can spy on their users without warning

#174

Post by Don_ »

daeken wrote: post #21
wil421 wrote: post #11

I really would hate to taint my MBP with ugly duct tap on the camera, but I may have to in the future. Months ago I read about a company that rented laptops for people to make payments on and eventually own. They installed spy software so they could locate the laptops had the user not made a monthly payment. Employees were spying on users while they were having sex and other things. This wasnt on MBPs but they still…

> I really would hate to taint my MBP with ugly duct tap on the camera, but I may have to in the future. A tiny piece of black electrical tape blends in nicely and won't leave gunk on your bezel.

>All these tape/paper/etc advices to cover the webcam

Jesus Christ, guys. Do you use Linux?

Just blacklist the webcam module to preventing it from loading whenever the system boots. Want to use the webcam? Load the module manually.

# modprobe uvcvideo

Want to unload the camera again? Easy.

# modprobe -r uvcvideo

Generally, it's the uvcvideo module, but it might change from system to system.

A malicious code would need root access to your system to load/unload the webcam module. If someone has root access to your computer/to execute code in your computer, you're in MUCH, much deeper shit than if you let someone film you. Seriously. Specially if you use your computer for money transactions or talk about important stuff to people.

Re: Research shows how MacBook Webcams can spy on their users without warning

#175

Post by yuhong »

Crito wrote: post #35
DanBC wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now all you have to do is warn users that the one LED is important and means something. Not like all the other LEDs that are on all the time and are mostly pointless. http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/10/webcam-spy-settleme... http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2386599,00.asp > When the school district investigated the case, it found other incidents of webcam spying, and notified the students involved, includin…

"Now all you have to do is warn users that the one LED is important and means something. Not like all the other LEDs that are on all the time and are mostly pointless." No longer plastering devices with semi-pointless LEDs would help. Harddrive activity? Wifi? Bluetooth? I don't think all these lights are really necessary. Throw one on the power cable maybe, and a few to backlight the keyboard, but otherwise only use…

But generally the webcam light is placed near the webcam itself, away from all the other LEDs you mentioned.

Re: Research shows how MacBook Webcams can spy on their users without warning

#176

Post by userbinator »

Crito wrote: post #35
DanBC wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now all you have to do is warn users that the one LED is important and means something. Not like all the other LEDs that are on all the time and are mostly pointless. http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/10/webcam-spy-settleme... http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2386599,00.asp > When the school district investigated the case, it found other incidents of webcam spying, and notified the students involved, includin…

"Now all you have to do is warn users that the one LED is important and means something. Not like all the other LEDs that are on all the time and are mostly pointless." No longer plastering devices with semi-pointless LEDs would help. Harddrive activity? Wifi? Bluetooth? I don't think all these lights are really necessary. Throw one on the power cable maybe, and a few to backlight the keyboard, but otherwise only use…

NO, that is the wrong way to go. HDD is important (especially if you have an SSD) because it shows when it's being accessed, Wifi is even more important because you're communicating over the network when that one activates, and if it's doing so without any reason to then you should suspect something going on (like malware infection). Ditto for BlueTooth. If they're implemented well, hardware indicators are impossible to fake.

One of my biggest gripes is how MS removed in Win7 the little connection icon in the system tray that shows when data is sent/received (it even split send/recv into two separate indicators, rather clever I think.) IMHO the trend of "simplification" is going too far. How about educating the users instead of making them more ignorant by hiding anything that they "wouldn't know about" (and making it harder for them to even start wondering about - and thus possibly learning)?

Re: Research shows how MacBook Webcams can spy on their users without warning

#177

Post by userbinator »

Lagged2Death wrote: post #117
Arelius wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not difficult, but it makes the system unflexible, The vendors, not worried about the privacy implications, choose what makes the system more flexible. I've heard that this was a serious flaw in Google's opinion, and they went through great efforts to ensure that the LED for the chromebook pixel was actually hard-wired into the camera's electronics. Which if true, shows that it's indeed possible.

It's not difficult, but it makes the system unflexible... Um. That would be exactly the point of doing it, in this case. The camera indicator (and the microphone indicator that every laptop should but currently does not have) should be completely inflexible. What "flexibility" is added by having an indicator that only sort-of indicates, anyway?

"flexibility" is the same reason for why we have software designs that are many times more complex than necessary, an IMHO it's a line of reasoning that should be questioned more.

As a compromise, the indicator could be wired-OR: software can turn on the indicator if it wants to, and it gets turned on if the camera is on, but software cannot turn it OFF if the camera is on.

Re: Research shows how MacBook Webcams can spy on their users without warning

#178

Post by userbinator »

Crito wrote: post #124
nsxwolf wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably better implemented as a system tray icon.

I have a computer without a hdd indicator light and sometimes I miss it (like when I am fullscreened and a sudden lockup caused by unswapping lots of stuff occurs), but ultimately I haven't found it to be a big deal.

Things like this are sort of like seatbelts and helmets: you usually don't need it, but when you need it, you REALLY need it.

Re: Research shows how MacBook Webcams can spy on their users without warning

#180

Post by userbinator »

sirkneeland wrote: post #112
schnevets wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Malware that spontaneously lights the LED without activating the camera so the user becomes accustomed to a false indicator. Or have the LED turn anytime the machine is left idle (but still on) in order to burn out the LED.

Is it feasible to burn out the LED? Those things have lifespans of up to 100,000 hours, which means it's likelier the computer itself would be broken or obsoleted before the LED itself burns out.

Indicator LEDs usually just dim (unnoticeably) over time. Catastrophic failures do occur, but tend to be more likely with high-power torch/backlight LEDs that are driven hard to produce the most light rather than indicators which are operated at "visible but not too bright" levels. I have a keyboard from '86 and its numlock LED is still working perfectly fine after nearly 3 decades.
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