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Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

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Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#121

Post by crpatino »

mesaaz wrote: post #64
jl6 wrote: post #48

One of the main problems humanity would have in recovering from a collapse of civilization would be the absence of fossil fuel reserves that we used to bootstrap civilization the first time round. Could this process be run in a low-tech manner to synthesise the oil necessary to get us back up running again?

At the risk of overgeneralizing our particular species/planetary history, the point you raise has been suggested as an explanation for the Fermi Paradox by Ugo Bardi and John Michael Greer. If another life-bearing planet eventually evolves an intelligent species, than it certainly evolved an equivalent of our phytoplankton, zooplankton, and plants, the precursors of fossil fuels As the intelligent species develops it…

If you find this idea interesting, you may want to check Greer's online sci-fi novel: Star's Reach - A Novel on the Deindustrial Future. http://starsreach.blogspot.com/

The idea is, agrarian societies 300-odd years ago were very "evolved" forms of human environments. Current industrial civilization is the first raw, buggy attempt of a different kind of human ecology... and we have a bumpy ride ahead of us (much like men after the latest Ice Age had to learn this agriculture thing over centuries/milenia to get it right)

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#122

Post by Symmetry »

brc wrote: post #100
Symmetry wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EROEI only matters if this is your only source of energy. At $500/barrel it would make sense to use solar power for the energy intensive bits. Nothing says your conversion plant has to run day and night.

You say that like solar power is free. To calculate the EROEI, you have to include the energy from solar.

Not free, but much cheaper than $500 for each 1.7 mwh, or barrel of oil. Solar is already cheaper than that even in cloudy Britain. EROEI is sort of irrelevant to the question of whether we'll ever "run out of oil." It might be that we'll stop using oil as a primary energy source, but that doesn't mean it'll go away.

EDIT: You might recall that the point you dismissed as "ignorant nonsense" was that we would be able to produce oil at $500/gallon, not that we would use it as a source of energy.

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#123

Post by namlem »

tedsanders wrote: post #99
enraged_camel wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Is why we won't run out of 'oil' at any time. Even at $500/barrel equivalent there is a point where if you must have 'crude oil' you can make it for a price. Of course at that point its a 'renewable resource' which is kind of funny. Well, yes. We won't run out of oil in the ground either. The Earth actually has enough reserves to last us for thousands of years. When people say we will "run out of oil" what they act…

Cars, ships, and trains may be electrified, but I don't think planes will ever be electrified. A huge advantage of fossil fuels over batteries is energy density, and energy density is very important for planes.

Planes can absolutely be electrified. We just need to find a more dense energy storage medium than Li-ion/Li-poly batteries. Lithium-air batteries have energy density comparable to gasoline, so they might work if we can figure out how to make them rechargeable. A fuel cell could potentially work as well.

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#124

Post by mesaaz »

crpatino wrote: post #121
mesaaz wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the risk of overgeneralizing our particular species/planetary history, the point you raise has been suggested as an explanation for the Fermi Paradox by Ugo Bardi and John Michael Greer. If another life-bearing planet eventually evolves an intelligent species, than it certainly evolved an equivalent of our phytoplankton, zooplankton, and plants, the precursors of fossil fuels As the intelligent species develops it…

If you find this idea interesting, you may want to check Greer's online sci-fi novel: Star's Reach - A Novel on the Deindustrial Future. http://starsreach.blogspot.com/ The idea is, agrarian societies 300-odd years ago were very "evolved" forms of human environments. Current industrial civilization is the first raw, buggy attempt of a different kind of human ecology... and we have a bumpy ride ahead of us (much like…

Thanks for the suggestion, I will check it out.

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#125

Post by wil421 »

beat wrote: post #96
wil421 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gasification is a fascinating process I was just recently aware of. Some guy got his truck to run on a certain type of oak. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYGKn12Weu4

Scalability is a fascinating process, too. But oak trees aren't scalable. There are lots of ways to generate local "renewable" energy optima from waste products. Unfortunately, none of them scale.

I believe the guy was only using what was available around him. Oak apparently provided the best bang.

Who knows what else that we could use that would scale.

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#126

Post by charlieflowers »

willismichael wrote: post #46
charlieflowers wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science fiction story just popped into my head: The story starts with people terraforming a planet and turning it into a giant algae-growing factory, for the purpose of creating oil from it. Whole plots with interesting characters occur. Then, suddenly, towards the end, those people abandon the whole project to go fight a war in their own galaxy. Then, the story ends with the shocking twist ... somehow you find out t…

...and then in the sequel they show up millions of years later when the war is over, only to find that sentient creatures have evolved and have almost entirely used up the oil reserves :)

BRILLIANT!

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#127

Post by brc »

Symmetry wrote: post #122
brc wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that like solar power is free. To calculate the EROEI, you have to include the energy from solar.

Not free, but much cheaper than $500 for each 1.7 mwh, or barrel of oil. Solar is already cheaper than that even in cloudy Britain. EROEI is sort of irrelevant to the question of whether we'll ever "run out of oil." It might be that we'll stop using oil as a primary energy source, but that doesn't mean it'll go away. EDIT: You might recall that the point you dismissed as "ignorant nonsense" was that we would be able…

I think you might be referring to someone else.

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#128

Post by Symmetry »

brc wrote: post #127
Symmetry wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not free, but much cheaper than $500 for each 1.7 mwh, or barrel of oil. Solar is already cheaper than that even in cloudy Britain. EROEI is sort of irrelevant to the question of whether we'll ever "run out of oil." It might be that we'll stop using oil as a primary energy source, but that doesn't mean it'll go away. EDIT: You might recall that the point you dismissed as "ignorant nonsense" was that we would be able…

I think you might be referring to someone else.

Ah, I was, sorry.

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#129

Post by crpatino »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #119
crpatino wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your original claim was that because of economic laws ($500/barrel argument) we will never run out of petrol. (ergo, will be able to find a way to violate laws of physics, because we want to). If you now want to change your argument and discuss why and how is this technology going to solve our energy problems, I am all ears.

Thanks for the clarification, I'm guessing I worded it poorly. First, a nit pick, I said "oil" (not petrol) but petrol is a product made from oil and mentioned in the article so its not a big deal. My claim is that we can make "petrol" out of the air if we want [1]. It does not violate any laws of physics (or thermodynamics). Using petrol to make petrol this way is not effective since the translation leaves you will…

Ok, I get what you mean. I was aware of the Fische-Tropsch process, though I would lie if I say I understand how it works. In the proper context, I understand why you are excited about this new technology hinted in the article.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, I do not think either of these will fix the energy problems we are facing. I do believe Fischer-Tropsch could play a part on the solution, and this new technique would be even better at it. Namely, a EROEI neutral-ish way to concentrate a diffuse energy source into a highly packed storage medium for strategic purposes (i.e. transportation, since carrying around the fuel is kind of a hard requirement)

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#130

Post by Gravityloss »

jonathlee wrote: post #70
Gravityloss wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that doesn't work since the sun is not a point source.

Maybe it doesn't work for lenses but it seems it would work for mirrors: http://www.academia.edu/5185260/SUNBEAMS_FROM_SPACE_MIRRORS_...

Thanks for the good link!

Ok, here they produce 1-sun intensity by having a 10 km mirror at 1000 km height, focusing on a 10 km terrestrial array.

That's a similar angular diameter, 1/100, as the sun, so from the receiver's point of view it can appear as powerful as the sun. I'm surprised that the numbers work out like that.

Maybe you could create a huge "death ray" constellation with 10x solar intensity and whose ground track (all sats in the same ground track) was filled with liquid cooled solar panels. Over the ocean it would just kill everything in its path.

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