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Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

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Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#101

Post by VLM »

maxerickson wrote: post #87
VLM wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL no Mexicos Hubbert peak was about a decade ago. Cantarell is bouncing along empty, Chicontepec is useless, economically unviable for geological reasons. And they don't have much else worth mentioning. (edited to add, duh I'm obviously talking about geological petroleum reserves not some kind of racial/cultural commentary) Its kind of like guano "production" from a century ago... Once its removed and shipped out,…

What's the case for marijuana being more than 5% of Mexico's economy? (I read a little bit that suggests that is a reasonable estimate of the maximum size of the U.S. market; the numbers are wishy-washy because use is not especially well characterized. U.S. tobacco consumption is ~7% of the Mexican economy, for the sake of establishing some sort of scale.)

One problem with weed and mexico and percentages, is are you talking about dollar figures, which doesn't mean much, or land area indirectly under cartel control, which given news reports is more like 95% than 5%, which has indirect economic effects (every beheading results in $X lower tourism revenue, etc).

In comparison, 5% of the american economy would be bigger than waste services but smaller than non-durable manufacturing aka toilet paper and the like. Needless to say those guys in the USA don't control significant territory or intentionally behead people other than crazy industrial accidents. If the drug biz is 5% in MX it certainly has more impact than most other 5%-sized biz sectors.

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#102

Post by brc »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #88
aaronblohowiak wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not just locomotives. the biggest earth-movers in the world are all electric vehicles powered by onboard generators. http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/10/worlds-largest-dumptruc...

Because you know what happens when you try to pass immense torque through a transmission? Bad things. Its why Elon fought for so long for a 2-speed transmission on the Roadster before giving up and opting for a lower top speed. Electric motors have a ridiculous amount of force they can put out. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster#Timeline "Subsequent to completion of production car number one at Hethel, the c…

I think you mean 4 second 0-60 time. A 4 second 1/4 mile would be a world record.

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#103

Post by toomuchtodo »

brc wrote: post #102
toomuchtodo wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you know what happens when you try to pass immense torque through a transmission? Bad things. Its why Elon fought for so long for a 2-speed transmission on the Roadster before giving up and opting for a lower top speed. Electric motors have a ridiculous amount of force they can put out. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster#Timeline "Subsequent to completion of production car number one at Hethel, the c…

I think you mean 4 second 0-60 time. A 4 second 1/4 mile would be a world record.

Thank you! Corrected.

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#104

Post by VLM »

pjc50 wrote: post #54
VLM wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"storage in convenient ... form" If you can't store it, you can't use it, so it doesn't matter how green it is, it won't be used. The ideal transportable liquid fuel is diesel with gasoline a very close second. Some peculiar and temporary engineering and economic issues make gasoline ideal for passenger cars but in a very long run perspective the whole world is going diesel, its just the future has arrived a little q…

Sure, but people use nonstorable electricity just fine, so I disagree with your first sentence. Biogas rather than biodiesel might appear as a farm fuel in the future, either from manure or wood gasification. But not while underground gas is still cheap enough to flare.

Ah I think you're correct. I reread your post and I got stuck circular. Yes fixed installations would almost certainly continue not to use liquid fuels just like now. Probably direct solar like you say. And just like now, the transport industry would continue to heavily rely on liq fuels. I'd worry about practical engineering issues with biogas either leaking out (especially if pressurized) or oxygen contamination leaking into the flammability limit range.

If you unleash a chemist and tell him to do anything he wants to make the best energy store, you end up with a liquid hydrocarbon, they really are awesome by both mass and volume energy density and working temp range and corrosion resistance and shelf stability and a bunch of other parameters, even if cost is not an issue. True, weird corner cases like solid rocket boosters do end up with weird fuel components, but they're weird, so that's OK.

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#105

Post by ams6110 »

wil421 wrote: post #95
shortly wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doesnt this take away from the real issue of fossil fuels? Pollution, increased CO2 and climate changes. No. Any CO2 released when these fuels are burned has to come from the algae. The algae gets it from the air. So CO2 is cycled, but not added to the atmosphere.

For my understanding, the problem with the fossil fuels is that they are trapped in the ground and we are releasing the carbon that was trapped in the ground into the atmosphere.

That is true for fossil fuels. But for oil produced from algae, the carbon came from the atmosphere or the immediate surface environment, so it's not introducing any "new" (or long-sequestered) carbon.

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#106

Post by VLM »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #84
crpatino wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even at $500/barrel equivalent there is a point where if you must have 'crude oil' you can make it for a price. Sorry, but this is just ignorant nonsense. EROEI is what counts here, not raw "profits". If your $500/barrel price point was calculated using inputs that require total energy investment equivalent to 2 barrels of oil @ $150/barrel... this is a stupid way of burning perfectly good and relatively cheap natu…

My claim is that the energy equation is independent of oil availability. We aren't going to "run out of energy" as some people postulate. Knowing that is helpful sometimes. You might want to check the EROEI numbers for algae fuels, the NASA paper suggests that they are lower than they are for oil. They make that claim based on lower transportation costs (feedstock is made 'onsite' of the refinery), and a simpler refi…

"We aren't going to "run out of energy" as some people postulate."

Why?

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#107

Post by maxerickson »

VLM wrote: post #101
maxerickson wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the case for marijuana being more than 5% of Mexico's economy? (I read a little bit that suggests that is a reasonable estimate of the maximum size of the U.S. market; the numbers are wishy-washy because use is not especially well characterized. U.S. tobacco consumption is ~7% of the Mexican economy, for the sake of establishing some sort of scale.)

One problem with weed and mexico and percentages, is are you talking about dollar figures, which doesn't mean much, or land area indirectly under cartel control, which given news reports is more like 95% than 5%, which has indirect economic effects (every beheading results in $X lower tourism revenue, etc). In comparison, 5% of the american economy would be bigger than waste services but smaller than non-durable manu…

So you think lower marijuana revenues would exacerbate drug violence and help consolidate cartel power? Because you said the impact of marijuana legalization on Mexico makes it politically untenable, and I don't see the case for that when I look at the relative size of those revenues and make some arrogant guesses as to how they are distributed.

The 5% figure is a ballpark estimate for marijuana, not drugs in general.

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#108

Post by VLM »

farinasa wrote: post #94
grecy wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but that doesn't mean anything when we're only getting ~16% efficiency in our ICE.

Good thing we have been doing better than that for some time now. >The MAN S80ME-C7 low speed diesel engines use 155 grams (5.5 oz) of fuel per kWh for an overall energy conversion efficiency of 54.4% >The efficiency of a combined cycle gas turbine system can exceed 60%. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine#Fuel_economy In fact, it's shameful how underutilized diesel engines are in this world. Same with stirlin…

If you're allowed any scientific process regardless of engineering challenge and economics, thermally crack the crude down to hydrogen and pure carbon coke deposits, sequester the carbon for carbon credits, and pipe the H2 into fuel cells for near 100% efficiency.

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#109

Post by crpatino »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #84
crpatino wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even at $500/barrel equivalent there is a point where if you must have 'crude oil' you can make it for a price. Sorry, but this is just ignorant nonsense. EROEI is what counts here, not raw "profits". If your $500/barrel price point was calculated using inputs that require total energy investment equivalent to 2 barrels of oil @ $150/barrel... this is a stupid way of burning perfectly good and relatively cheap natu…

My claim is that the energy equation is independent of oil availability. We aren't going to "run out of energy" as some people postulate. Knowing that is helpful sometimes. You might want to check the EROEI numbers for algae fuels, the NASA paper suggests that they are lower than they are for oil. They make that claim based on lower transportation costs (feedstock is made 'onsite' of the refinery), and a simpler refi…

Your original claim was that because of economic laws ($500/barrel argument) we will never run out of petrol. (ergo, will be able to find a way to violate laws of physics, because we want to).

If you now want to change your argument and discuss why and how is this technology going to solve our energy problems, I am all ears.

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#110

Post by ramchip »

farinasa wrote: post #94
grecy wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but that doesn't mean anything when we're only getting ~16% efficiency in our ICE.

Good thing we have been doing better than that for some time now. >The MAN S80ME-C7 low speed diesel engines use 155 grams (5.5 oz) of fuel per kWh for an overall energy conversion efficiency of 54.4% >The efficiency of a combined cycle gas turbine system can exceed 60%. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine#Fuel_economy In fact, it's shameful how underutilized diesel engines are in this world. Same with stirlin…

(That's a marine engine though. Larger engines are more efficient.)
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