Sent $35,104.11 USD to CoinBase. Never received Bitcoins • Hacker News Board

Re: Sent $35,104.11 USD to CoinBase. Never received Bitcoins

#41

Post by bushido » Wed, Dec 18, 2013, 7:41 PM UTC

Moral_ wrote: post #6

I feel bad for you, honestly. But serious question as well: Would you have went public with this if the price hadn't fallen dramatically? Perhaps if it went back up to $1500 a coin would things be different? Either way I hope things get resolved for you.

Actually he probably still should have (and perhaps would have) taken this public, as they have failed to deliver the instrument in a timely manner and the OP could have bought and sold bitcoin taking advantage of price movements.

This is a clear case of "bucketing"[0] whether done intentionally or not. Its illegal regardless if it seemingly "worked out".

[0] http://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bucketing.asp

Re: Sent $35,104.11 USD to CoinBase. Never received Bitcoins

#42

Post by bri3d » Wed, Dec 18, 2013, 7:41 PM UTC

sheetjs wrote: post #25

From their terms of service: > Coinbase does not guarantee the value of bitcoin. You acknowledge that the price or value of bitcoin can change rapidly, decrease, and potentially even fall to zero. You acknowledge that holding bitcoin is high risk. You agree to deliver the agreed upon payment for bitcoin upon confirmation of an order, regardless of changes in bitcoin value. > Coinbase will make reasonable efforts to e…

The original poster does seem to have started small(er) before scaling up: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6929954 .

Re: Sent $35,104.11 USD to CoinBase. Never received Bitcoins

#43

Post by PeterisP » Wed, Dec 18, 2013, 7:42 PM UTC

To all of you who say that Bitcoin shouldn't be regulated - this is what it results in.

If it was any regulated financial deal - say, purchase of stock or Yen - then there are clear rules on how to handle that, namely, you'd be entitled to at least compensation for any decrease between the 'locked' price at the agreed settlement date and the real settlement, whenever it may happen, and the interest for the period. Repeated such situations would result in a rapid audit to verify if they really have enough assets to pay out all their debts, and if not, shut them down immediately.

Now you're quite screwed, while coinbase has taken a profit on this (and probably other) deals by delaying these settlements. And what are you going to do if you don't get all the losses covered? Your options are quite limited.

Re: Sent $35,104.11 USD to CoinBase. Never received Bitcoins

#44

Post by dangrossman » Wed, Dec 18, 2013, 7:42 PM UTC

sjtgraham wrote: post #36

zt wrote: post #3

ACH transactions are reversible FWIW.

Hang on. So one could buy and receive BTC, dispose of them, and then reverse the ACH transfer? Brings a whole new meaning to the term "double spending"!

That's pretty much why Dwolla pulled out of funding Bitcoin exchanges.

Re: Sent $35,104.11 USD to CoinBase. Never received Bitcoins

#45

Post by codegeek » Wed, Dec 18, 2013, 7:44 PM UTC

7Figures2Commas wrote: post #40

codegeek wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

shouldn't it be more like Market Risk ?

In this case, the counterparty to the transaction appears unable to meet its obligations, at least according to the OP. That's counterparty risk.

But the ACH is completely reversible. So not really a risk specially considering that price has fallen :).

Re: Sent $35,104.11 USD to CoinBase. Never received Bitcoins

#46

Post by fleitz » Wed, Dec 18, 2013, 7:44 PM UTC

sheetjs wrote: post #25

From their terms of service: > Coinbase does not guarantee the value of bitcoin. You acknowledge that the price or value of bitcoin can change rapidly, decrease, and potentially even fall to zero. You acknowledge that holding bitcoin is high risk. You agree to deliver the agreed upon payment for bitcoin upon confirmation of an order, regardless of changes in bitcoin value. > Coinbase will make reasonable efforts to e…

Fuck their shitty TOS, call the SEC and have them investigate, they need to comply with the law.

They are acting as financial services provider and must be in compliance with those laws.

The law gives the OP a clear resolution.

There's a pretty clear resolution here, give the customer back their money because your business doesn't actually work, or give the customer the coins at the most favorable price.

Re: Sent $35,104.11 USD to CoinBase. Never received Bitcoins

#47

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Dec 18, 2013, 7:45 PM UTC

bri3d wrote: post #42

sheetjs wrote: post #25

From their terms of service: > Coinbase does not guarantee the value of bitcoin. You acknowledge that the price or value of bitcoin can change rapidly, decrease, and potentially even fall to zero. You acknowledge that holding bitcoin is high risk. You agree to deliver the agreed upon payment for bitcoin upon confirmation of an order, regardless of changes in bitcoin value. > Coinbase will make reasonable efforts to e…

The original poster does seem to have started small(er) before scaling up: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6929954 .

[deleted]

Re: Sent $35,104.11 USD to CoinBase. Never received Bitcoins

#48

Post by tga » Wed, Dec 18, 2013, 7:46 PM UTC

For anyone considering using Coinbase or similar services where you have to pay via bank transfer -- think twice and take this as a serious warning that you have almost no protection if they screw you/up somehow.

I have a problem with Coinbase for a much smaller sum (luckily): ordered at what I was convinced was a fixed price and just received less BTC at a much higher rate. Their customer support refuses to help (or even to cancel the transaction) and banks just don't get involved in direct transfers on your side, the way they would do on a credit card transaction.

Short of going to the police and lamenting on forums (hello!), there is nothing you can do.

Re: Sent $35,104.11 USD to CoinBase. Never received Bitcoins

#49

Post by bushido » Wed, Dec 18, 2013, 7:46 PM UTC

moocowduckquack wrote: post #32

sheetjs wrote: post #25

From their terms of service: > Coinbase does not guarantee the value of bitcoin. You acknowledge that the price or value of bitcoin can change rapidly, decrease, and potentially even fall to zero. You acknowledge that holding bitcoin is high risk. You agree to deliver the agreed upon payment for bitcoin upon confirmation of an order, regardless of changes in bitcoin value. > Coinbase will make reasonable efforts to e…

If they were holding onto 35.10 rather than 35.10K, I suspect you would react differently The courts tend to as well.

Actually you'd be wrong in this case as it is an illegal practice ("bucketing") whether due to a technical error, human error or malicious intent.

The settlement amount may defer for the plaintiff, but the as it would be considered as/or similar to securities fraud the repercussions for the company could be dire.

Re: Sent $35,104.11 USD to CoinBase. Never received Bitcoins

#50

Post by makomk » Wed, Dec 18, 2013, 7:46 PM UTC

Moral_ wrote: post #6

I feel bad for you, honestly. But serious question as well: Would you have went public with this if the price hadn't fallen dramatically? Perhaps if it went back up to $1500 a coin would things be different? Either way I hope things get resolved for you.

If the price went back up to $1500 a coin, Coinbase would cancel his transaction whether he wanted them to or not despite the supposed price lockin (and return his dollars in their own sweet time). Their usual justification is "excessive risk".