Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

pnnl.gov

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 130 posts

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#61

Post by austinz »

johnchristopher wrote: post #44
hobbes300 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I struggled with the question of how to transport that energy to where we'd like to use it Lasers

Thus spoke our prophet: Let me tell you one of my pet peeves: space solar power. Okay, the stupidest thing ever. If anyone should like space solar power, it should be me. I got a rocket company and a solar company. I should be really on it, ya know. But it's like, super obviously, not going to work because, ya know, if you have solar panels - first of all, it has to be better than having solar panels on Earth, so the…

I always saw it as a very long-term solution. Once we have the lunar colonies, orbital space stations, asteroid mining, and the economic infrastructure to make interplanetary travel routine, we could begin building out SSP as a practically unlimited source of power. But, for the foreseeable future I have to agree with Musk. Considering how expensive launching stuff to orbit is right now almost any sort of terrestrial solar power coupled with an energy storage mechanism (e.g. pumped hydro, heat reservoirs for solar thermal) would be more cost-effective.

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#62

Post by [deleted] »

charlieflowers wrote: post #22
dagw wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it is not sure it is positive. It's certainly very negative. The advantage is you can use things like solar, hydro or geothermal energy to heat the system. Even turning 1000MW of geothermal energy into only 100MW of crude oil can be worthwhile since you can't run an internal combustion engine on geothermal energy.

Wonder if this could be done in space? A few months ago I read about the idea of solar energy being captured in space, and I struggled with the question of how to transport that energy to where we'd like to use it. If the algae could grow in space, and this process could occur in space, then we could wastefully convert solar to oil in space, and spacecraft could use that oil in space. Lot of if's and speculation ther…

[deleted]

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#63

Post by Gravityloss »

eterm wrote: post #59
johnchristopher wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thus spoke our prophet: Let me tell you one of my pet peeves: space solar power. Okay, the stupidest thing ever. If anyone should like space solar power, it should be me. I got a rocket company and a solar company. I should be really on it, ya know. But it's like, super obviously, not going to work because, ya know, if you have solar panels - first of all, it has to be better than having solar panels on Earth, so the…

Can't we skip the conversion and use giant optical lenses to focus sunlight onto panels on earth? ;)

No, that doesn't work since the sun is not a point source.

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#64

Post by mesaaz »

jl6 wrote: post #48

One of the main problems humanity would have in recovering from a collapse of civilization would be the absence of fossil fuel reserves that we used to bootstrap civilization the first time round. Could this process be run in a low-tech manner to synthesise the oil necessary to get us back up running again?

At the risk of overgeneralizing our particular species/planetary history, the point you raise has been suggested as an explanation for the Fermi Paradox by Ugo Bardi and John Michael Greer.

If another life-bearing planet eventually evolves an intelligent species, than it certainly evolved an equivalent of our phytoplankton, zooplankton, and plants, the precursors of fossil fuels

As the intelligent species develops it eventually discovers its planet's equivalent of fossil fuel. But it does not understand that this extremely power-dense source has no true substitute, until it is too late.

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#65

Post by ChuckMcM »

And this boys and girls:

""Cost is the big roadblock for algae-based fuel," said Douglas Elliott, the laboratory fellow who led the PNNL team's research. "We believe that the process we've created will help make algae biofuels much more economical."

Is why we won't run out of 'oil' at any time. Even at $500/barrel equivalent there is a point where if you must have 'crude oil' you can make it for a price. Of course at that point its a 'renewable resource' which is kind of funny.

I am glad the PNNL guys have gotten this down to a continuous process. The NASA folks who were showing it at Yuri Day a few years ago were still making algae in batches.

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#66

Post by enraged_camel »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #65

And this boys and girls: ""Cost is the big roadblock for algae-based fuel," said Douglas Elliott, the laboratory fellow who led the PNNL team's research. "We believe that the process we've created will help make algae biofuels much more economical." Is why we won't run out of 'oil' at any time. Even at $500/barrel equivalent there is a point where if you must have 'crude oil' you can make it for a price. Of course at…

>>Is why we won't run out of 'oil' at any time. Even at $500/barrel equivalent there is a point where if you must have 'crude oil' you can make it for a price. Of course at that point its a 'renewable resource' which is kind of funny.

Well, yes. We won't run out of oil in the ground either. The Earth actually has enough reserves to last us for thousands of years.

When people say we will "run out of oil" what they actually mean is that we will run out of cheap, easily affordable oil (i.e. oil that can be extracted and transported to refineries easily). I mean, do you know what would happen to gas prices if we had to pay $500/barrel?

So yeah, we will probably always use petroleum, since it has a lot of byproducts used in other industries. But using oil as a fuel? That is going to have to stop soon because of price pressure alone.

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#67

Post by robhu »

beat wrote: post #60

Something to keep in mind, and the source of much misunderstanding in alternative fuel discussions... there are really three different systems involved! Energy capture, energy storage, and energy conversion (converting stored energy to work). Energy capture: Fossil fuel has the unpleasant problem that the energy was captured long ago, over very time-consuming (millions of years) natural processes. So it carries two f…

If we're talking about stable long-term energy sources that aren't yet ready/cost effective, then nuclear fusion is another option.

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#68

Post by aaronblohowiak »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #51
jccooper wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm petty sure I'm being pedantic, but to be clear: Electric engines (motors) are great. Highly efficient, simple, powerful, scalable both ways, and reliable. If you've got electricity available and want things to move, they're the way to go. It's the batteries that are sub par, in many ways.

That's exactly why diesel locomotives have always been diesel generators connected to massive electric motors; the best of both worlds.

not just locomotives. the biggest earth-movers in the world are all electric vehicles powered by onboard generators.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/10/worlds-largest-dumptruc...

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#69

Post by crpatino »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #65

And this boys and girls: ""Cost is the big roadblock for algae-based fuel," said Douglas Elliott, the laboratory fellow who led the PNNL team's research. "We believe that the process we've created will help make algae biofuels much more economical." Is why we won't run out of 'oil' at any time. Even at $500/barrel equivalent there is a point where if you must have 'crude oil' you can make it for a price. Of course at…

> Even at $500/barrel equivalent there is a point where if you must have 'crude oil' you can make it for a price.

Sorry, but this is just ignorant nonsense. EROEI is what counts here, not raw "profits".

If your $500/barrel price point was calculated using inputs that require total energy investment equivalent to 2 barrels of oil @ $150/barrel... this is a stupid way of burning perfectly good and relatively cheap natural oil in order to get half the amount of expensive, artificial oil. You are basically engaging in a price arbitrage scheme between yesterday's oil market and tomorrow's oil market (and betting your shirt that you can safely surf the wave ahead of the price adjustments).

The only reliable way to make a profit out of this is to secure government grants, subsidies, or some other type of funding that lets you hedge your looses. Wait... PNNL, NASA.... never mind.

Re: Algae to crude oil: Million-year natural process takes minutes in the lab

#70

Post by jonathlee »

Gravityloss wrote: post #63
eterm wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't we skip the conversion and use giant optical lenses to focus sunlight onto panels on earth? ;)

No, that doesn't work since the sun is not a point source.

Maybe it doesn't work for lenses but it seems it would work for mirrors: http://www.academia.edu/5185260/SUNBEAMS_FROM_SPACE_MIRRORS_...
Post reply on HN