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The NSA: An Inside View

lorensr.me

291–300 of 323 posts

Re: The NSA: An Inside View

#291
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take away "the NSA is full of the kind of person who won't look at the big picture, who will follow orders without exercising critical thinking, and who can be counted upon to be a Good German." That is exactly right. Employees of intelligence agencies are selected primarily for loyalty, not critical thinking. Most people find that hard to believe, especially those inside who tend to have a very high opinion of the…

How do you know this?

There was an article about how they prefer to hire Mormons. It was interesting because this was before it was revealed that the largest NSA DC was to be built in Utah.

Re: The NSA: An Inside View

#292
One of the most concerning things about the selection process for who gets into the NSA, is that it all but guarantees a lack of diversity of thought within the NSA. There are probably very few people with opposing viewpoints so most projects that would be considered dubious by the diverse population in the US can go completely unchecked within the agency.

For example, the author mentions the following:

    They examine your 127-page Standard Form 86, in which you 
    include lists of your illegal activities, foreigners you 
    have worked with or befriended, and where you have lived 
    and traveled in your life and with whom.
The fact that someone is capable of truthfully filling out such a form is a huge flag that the person has had remarkably little exposure to the rest of the world. They are probably poorly traveled and grew up and lived in places with few if any immigrants. I don't know how someone who grew up in NYC, San Francisco, Washington DC or Los Angeles could possibly ever fill out such a form truthfully or completely. Anyone from such cities would have come in contact with and befriended so many people from other countries over the course of 18-22 years of living in such a diverse metropolis that any attempt to fill out such a form would be incomplete and could contribute to being rejected.

Re: The NSA: An Inside View

#293
post #283

HN, I'm ashamed of you. The comments in this thread (and every other Snowden-related revelation in the last six months) have made it clear you are incapable of appreciating the magnitude and complexity of this scope of issue. The comment threads have been dominated by narrow, small minded thinking, bereft of any considered thoughtfulness. I quit reading your comments on these posts long ago, because they were a worth…

> it takes a special kind of arrogance for this young man to believe his moral judgment on the dilemma suddenly trumps that of two (incredibly different) presidents, both houses of the U.S. Congress, both political parties, the U.S. court system and more than 30,000 of his co-workers.

Here's the counterpoint to this opinion:

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2010/02/daniel-ellsber...

> "You will deal with a person who doesn't have those clearances only from the point of view of what you want him to believe and what impression you want him to go away with, since you'll have to lie carefully to him about what you know. In effect, you will have to manipulate him. You'll give up trying to assess what he has to say. The danger is, you'll become something like a moron. You'll become incapable of learning from most people in the world, no matter how much experience they may have in their particular areas that may be much greater than yours."

To be clear, I think this is a highly complex issue and needs a lot of careful thought. I'm not at all suggesting General Hayden is wrong. I am suggesting that he doesn't believe an open, democratic debate about it serves any purpose.

To be more precise, the most misleading thing in the first quote is the bit about trumping two presidents, congress, both political parties and the courts. Plainly, given what we now know, a large proportion of these mentioned have been misinformed and not allowed to consider and debate what has been happening. And I include the courts here, thanks to parallel construction.

Also on the same lines, about the lack of debate, David Foster Wallace:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/11/just-ask...

I don't think you should be surprised that most of Hacker News is currently upset and only considering one side of the story. This is the debate that everyone has needed but has been suppressed up to now. Naturally, it rebounds stronger when it finally comes.

Re: The NSA: An Inside View

#294
post #113

Hey, and I'm a German patriot. If the US citizens like to be spied on by its own agencies, fine for me. As a German citizen I'm not so happy that German citizens, politicians and companies are targets of spying of unprecedented scale and depth. As a consequence we (and others, too) will have to scale back the use of US hardware, software and services. Privacy, data security, confidentially etc. are not provided. A Ge…

Are you also similarly upset about the activities of the BND, MAD, BfV and the LfVs that operate out of your own country?

I don't need to. The BND, MAD, BfV and LfVs are not remotely doing anything like the NSA - not in scale and not in breadth.

Re: The NSA: An Inside View

#296
post #289
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... because this has happened how many times?

Folks have lost clearances and jobs. I don't know about prison time. But I do know the fear of these things happening is a motivating factor not to cross the line. But I'm just some guy...

The problem here is that you trust the organization to police itself, whereas it has little incentive to actually do so effectively.

The cases of caught individuals seem to have gone under-punished, as they sound worthy of prison time.

Also, even if the NSA polices against personal abuses, why would it police against systematic abuse for government's purposes against the constitution?

Self-policing does not work well, especially without elaborate mechanisms to enable it to work, and especially with a combination of secrecy and lack of oversight.

Re: The NSA: An Inside View

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds illegal. In same article: >Wiretap tips forwarded by the SOD usually come from foreign governments, U.S. intelligence agencies or court-authorized domestic phone recordings. Because warrantless eavesdropping on Americans is illegal, tips from intelligence agencies are generally not forwarded to the SOD until a caller's citizenship can be verified, according to one senior law enforcement official and one f…

It might be waived in the event of an imminent action. Sort it out after the threat of the action is over.

And most important of all, hold people accountable if they're wrong about the "imminent action."

Same with torture and other unethical activities. Think you can save the city from nuclear destruction by torturing the brown-skinned guy? Sure, go for it. But you'd better hope you're right, because (at least in a just world) that's the only way you're staying out of prison for the rest of your life.

Re: The NSA: An Inside View

#298
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author claims to be a patriot but I would like to ask him how can he justify mass surveillance and/or entrusting a government agency with so much power while forgetting the Fourth Amendment which was enacted just for this purpose. There is a reason that such protections exist because it is almost certain that people in power will exploit them. And yet, he claims to be a patriot while being oblivious to the basic…

What in the Fourth Amendment speaks to electronic communications? The Fourth Amendment speaks to a person, their home, and their effects. Even things like postal mail do not technically fall under the Fourth Amendment. Rather, they fall under separately-passed Congressional law, and USPS regulations. For instance, did you know that the addressee of a letter may authorize the USPS to open the letter in a sorting facil…

@"What in the Fourth Amendment speaks to electronic communications? The Fourth Amendment speaks to a person, their home, and their effects."

The Fourth Amendment also protects people's papers from warrantless search and the Crown's abuse of the privacy of papers when executing its "general warrants" were a huge driver in the adoption of that Amendment. Private electronic communications are "papers" in that context, a "gift" of a paper from one to another.

But more importantly, the question you ask is phrased too narrowly in context. The First Amendment protects the right to communicate privately, free from government scrutiny. And the Fifth Amendment forbids the government from taking private property without due process and just compensation.

Roll all three of those amendments together and you should begin to comprehend that Congress, in establishing criminal penalties for interception of the U.S. mail --- a topic you curiously omitted --- stood on very firm constitutional ground when it did so.

Your notion that U.S. mail is protected only by federal statute simply blinks past the fact that our federal government is a government of only limited powers, allowed only to do what is permitted by the Constitution, with all other powers and rights reserved to the States and the People; i.e., a "mail" law can not lawfully exist without Constitutional authorization for Congress to enact such a law.

Also missing from your U.S. mail analogy is any analysis of a basis for believing that eMail should have any less protection than the U.S. mail. It is a criminal act for a government official on their own decision to open a letter to read the contents except in narrow common sense situations, such as a letter that is missing or has an invalid address. Why should eMail have any less protection?

Paul E. Merrell, J.D.

Re: The NSA: An Inside View

#299
post #222

I don't know if Loren is sincere, or if he's part of a disinformation campaign. Either way, I don't believe his reassurances. I think NSA surveillance is first and foremost a tool to control the American citizenry. The next Martin Luther King, Ralph Nader, or Daniel Ellsberg isn't gonna stand a chance.

@"I don't know if Loren is sincere, or if he's part of a disinformation campaign."

Those two states are not mutually exclusive in their entireties . It depends on what information he's been fed and believes. What is undeniable is that NSA has launched a Christmas disinformation campaign via staffers[1] and earlier, its extended family.[2] (Documents are at the bottom of the pages.)

Paul E. Merrell, J.D.

[1] http://preview.tinyurl.com/q6jp8gg

[2] http://preview.tinyurl.com/n3pxwen

Re: The NSA: An Inside View

#300

I spent four years in (2 years longer than the OP), but worked on a substantially broader swath of intelligence areas and in much more policy-oriented positions, and I can tell you that the vitriol that's been displayed on HackerNews is incredibly tiresome to see, because you are all missing a very key point about how the NSA conducts business (which I've pointed out in previous posts). The key point is this: the NSA…

> unless you grant me the authority to access datastore Z

NSA analysts accessing datastore Z is not the problem, and never was.

Datastore Z is the problem. According to the leaked documents those datastores contain data of U.S. citizens which the NSA couldn't have legally intercepted and stored without a court order.

E.g. the NSA cannot legally acquire copies of John Smith's email header fields and store them into datastore Z without a warrant defined by the 4th amendment.

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