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If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

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Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#281

Post by mcguire »

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #89
Jtsummers wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither the pilot of a fighter/bomber or a drone gets to decide on the targets. They're given orders from above based on the intel provided to the commanders. So the issue isn't itchy trigger finger of the pilot, but itchy trigger finger of the commanders. The commanders have demonstrated over the last decade a willingness to send drones into situations they would not send fighters/bombers. There are few instances of…

The US used to send aircraft straight over the USSR!

Yes, and there was a big stink on this side of the Atlantic when one was shot down.

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#282

Post by hahainternet »

bluecalm wrote: post #279
d23 wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if they were terrorists, there is no way they could have done as much damage as the slaughter of a whole wedding. Erm, why? You're saying terrorists can't kill 14 people?

There were more civilians deaths thatn this. If you are saying that expected number of people killed by expected number of terrorists this wedding could possibly be 14 or higher then no, it couldn't. As side effect by blowing up civilians you are creating more resentment leading to more terrorists.

> If you are saying that expected number of people killed by expected number of terrorists this wedding could possibly be 14 or higher then no, it couldn't

Mumbai.

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#283

Post by bunderbunder »

d23 wrote: post #260
willvarfar wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What part is illegal?

I'm guessing cscurmudgeon is arguing that it isn't.

Which, in my opinion, isn't necessarily a terribly useful question.

When it comes to where the law belongs in relation to pragmatism and ethics, I'm inclined to say that the cart belongs firmly behind both horses.

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#284

Post by MartinCron »

forktheif wrote: post #10

It continues to baffle me why the fact they're drones matter in the slightest. They're not autonomous, they're flown by pilots who just happen to not be sitting in the aircraft they're flying. Manned aircraft have killed huge groups of innocent civilians more than once, but apparently that's fine because the pilot was sitting in the aircraft.

For what it's worth, people had similar debates about the morality of using manned aircraft when airplanes were first invented.

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#285

Post by bluecalm »

mattlutze wrote: post #215
rdtsc wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is profitable. If terrorists disappeared tomorrow. Let's say we use our surgical strike weapons to target every cell every member, and in one hour they are gone. What would happen? Billions of dollars disappear from the pockets of everyone in the chain. Military contractors, drone maintenance, promotions, bonuses, career advancements, no more completed missions, medals, no job to go to. So the direct financial and…

I will continue to refuse to believe American military personnel choose to strike otherwise-collateral civilian targets. You're talking about moral humans, here. Our soldiers/airmen/marines/sailors are not soulless automatons, nor are officers that develop strategy and provide direction. Nor would I consider their pay to be either incentive or motivation.

For once there are a lot of unethical humans as other posters point out but it really doesn't matter. The actions to kill people are often result of many relatively innocent decisions: increase funding here, agree to some military testing there, give a bit more secrecy to some people, some more decision making power to others, write some more allowing, aggressive sounding policies and suddenly everybody does what's "necessary" and people are killed.

If incentives are in place, nature will find the way even if you can't point to one single person who actually pulled the trigger.

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#286

Post by nekopa »

typon wrote: post #267
ChuckMcM wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize that the fiction of a coherent "Military Industrial Complex" has been debunked several times right? One by the General Accounting Office showed that military contractors actually had higher profits in peacetime than wartime because they got money for 'research' and didn't have to actually produce any product.

That sounds extremely unlikely. Most research projects don't get hundreds of millions of dollars of funding, while a single F-22 costs upwards of $150 million.

The total program cost of the F22 is $66 billion. On a Pentagon spending request site they put the per unit cost as $354 million if you include R&D and procurement costs. So maybe it's more likely than you might think.

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#287

Post by acjohnson55 »

infinitone wrote: post #151
pavlov wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very easy to not agree with the way the North Korean government handles many things, but you have to give them the benefit of the doubt that they are not doing it for shits and giggles. After all, they have been at war for over 60 years now. It must be obvious to any patriotic Korean that the danger posed by American imperialists who still occupy the southern half of the country is ever-present and growing. Some…

These types of comments are becoming the norm on HN. Perhaps someone should write a script that can generate the reciprocal of the parent like this... it'd be a neat weekend project :d Btw, not saying the comment is bad in anyway.

Agreed!

And maybe eventually people will actually start thinking about the opposite position before they post something.

Or maybe they actually won't.

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#288

Post by yodsanklai »

Concretely, at our level, what could be done to prevent those things from happening? voting doesn't seem to be working (esp. for those of us who aren't american).

The problem is that our democracies are broken. Most people aren't well informed or unconcerned, and those who are don't have enough weight to make a difference.

Maybe we could find a way to make our democracies functioning better via public discussion on the internet.

We could imagine some kind of big political forum where logical reasoning would be enforced. Critical thinking would be encouraged. Rhetoric would be banned. Facts would be checked, politician would confront the public and each other on long and deep debates. Decisions would be taken collectively...

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#289

Post by samstave »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #253
rdtsc wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is profitable. If terrorists disappeared tomorrow. Let's say we use our surgical strike weapons to target every cell every member, and in one hour they are gone. What would happen? Billions of dollars disappear from the pockets of everyone in the chain. Military contractors, drone maintenance, promotions, bonuses, career advancements, no more completed missions, medals, no job to go to. So the direct financial and…

You realize that the fiction of a coherent "Military Industrial Complex" has been debunked several times right? One by the General Accounting Office showed that military contractors actually had higher profits in peacetime than wartime because they got money for 'research' and didn't have to actually produce any product.

Debunked by whom?

You know what would help "debunk" such a thing; if there was a site where every single investment made by any member of congress was required to be listed.

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#290

Post by acjohnson55 »

MattyRad wrote: post #274

Would anybody be surprised, even sympathetic, if the families of the deceased joined Al Qaeda as a direct result of this? Americans killed their friends and family on a sacred day, and nothing would be more appropriate than seeing they pay for it. Such an atrocity is almost comical when you think that the reason it occurred was to stop Al Qaeda, ends up bolstering it. It's appalling on so many levels.

This certainly seems to be the way it plays out in countless ethnic and sectarian conflicts. I suppose my government is just arrogant enough to believe it's always going to be faster to the drone trigger than the terrorists are at reaching their objectives. I don't think it's a sustainable approach.
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