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If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

theatlantic.com

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Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#251

Post by pantalaimon »

gsnedders wrote: post #96
alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a whole lot of choice - you want the US to just let the targets run around? Send a strike team in each time? Drop a real bomb or cruise missile (even more civilian casualties - those weapons are larger)?

You know what? Yes. I do. Arrest them, try them, when they reach US soil and pose a risk to the security of the US. Until then, they aren't your problem.

The funny thing is that this has been done before, but as there is not enough evidence to try them, they are locked up in Guantanamo indefinitely.

I guess drone strikes are just a cheaper solution for that problem, with less outrage than prison camps.

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#252

Post by hindsightbias »

frogpelt wrote: post #110
rdtsc wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is profitable. If terrorists disappeared tomorrow. Let's say we use our surgical strike weapons to target every cell every member, and in one hour they are gone. What would happen? Billions of dollars disappear from the pockets of everyone in the chain. Military contractors, drone maintenance, promotions, bonuses, career advancements, no more completed missions, medals, no job to go to. So the direct financial and…

Let me guess, you think there's a cure for cancer but the doctors are withholding it and Exxon Mobil bought the patent for a combustion engine that would achieve 100+ mpg. Any industry that is built on addressing problems that people naturally have is going to generate lots of revenue. It has been proven that people naturally fight with each other. People fight over race, religion, sports, politics, and territory. Na…

It's all about capabilities.

Back in the 80's and 90's, people who insisted the NSA did all this or that really couldn't explain how the technology would work to do all that. People insisted spy satellites could read my newspaper, yada yada.

About 5 years ago, the chips, scale-out HW, storage and Linux (thanks submitters!) reached the point where the known daily capacity of information stream or their meta could be stored by someone like the NSA or Google.

One just needs to assume technical capabilities is what defines reality.

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#253

Post by ChuckMcM »

rdtsc wrote: post #85
sethbannon wrote: post #12

The way America is conducting the war on terror is both self-defeating and morally repugnant.

It is profitable. If terrorists disappeared tomorrow. Let's say we use our surgical strike weapons to target every cell every member, and in one hour they are gone. What would happen? Billions of dollars disappear from the pockets of everyone in the chain. Military contractors, drone maintenance, promotions, bonuses, career advancements, no more completed missions, medals, no job to go to. So the direct financial and…

You realize that the fiction of a coherent "Military Industrial Complex" has been debunked several times right? One by the General Accounting Office showed that military contractors actually had higher profits in peacetime than wartime because they got money for 'research' and didn't have to actually produce any product.

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#254

Post by toki5 »

aroch wrote: post #242
crbnw00ts wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. For how many years were people dismissed as nutjobs and "conspiracy theorists" when they talked about NSA spying? Now we know it was all true. Would you like to make a bet as to whether or not the US military-industrial complex acts in its own self-interest when comes to the "War on Terror"? When it comes down to it, there is nothing particularly "extraordinary"…

>For how many years were people dismissed as nutjobs and "conspiracy theorists" when they talked about NSA spying? Now we know it was all true. Just because it is true, doesn't mean those people aren't nutjobs or conspiracy theorists.

It's also not at all logical to say:

[Unlikely thing X] came true! Therefore, [unlikely thing Y] will, too!

Even if X and Y were incredibly similar -- in this case they aren't, at all -- that's still not a logical assumption. It's not even evidence toward Y.

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#255

Post by stonemetal »

josefresco wrote: post #180
stonemetal wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if we had bombed the heck out of them 20 min before\after the wedding? I understand you got to get them when you can, but it also seems like they could be a little nicer about it. They could let the wedding draw them out of hiding then start surveillance, and follow them back to their hiding place rather than start shooting immediately.

Sounds like they kind of already did this. Most news reports I read describe the target being hit on convoys heading to a wedding, I haven't heard of many that happen at the wedding site itself. Why don't we assume that all safeguards to protect civilians were ignored when planning and executing a strike?

While hitting a car in a convoy is relatively self contained, I would still consider that being engaged in wedding activities with many civilians in close proximity. If we find them at a wedding why not follow them for 10-24hrs take them on their way back to hiding. I am just saying shooting at targets in a crowd might make for a good action flick but poor real life as seen in the article where they killed 3x the number of people they were targeting and injured 4x the number of people they were targeting. Also remember those targeted were suspects not confirmed bad guys.

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#256

Post by FedRegister »

mattlutze wrote: post #215
rdtsc wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is profitable. If terrorists disappeared tomorrow. Let's say we use our surgical strike weapons to target every cell every member, and in one hour they are gone. What would happen? Billions of dollars disappear from the pockets of everyone in the chain. Military contractors, drone maintenance, promotions, bonuses, career advancements, no more completed missions, medals, no job to go to. So the direct financial and…

I will continue to refuse to believe American military personnel choose to strike otherwise-collateral civilian targets. You're talking about moral humans, here. Our soldiers/airmen/marines/sailors are not soulless automatons, nor are officers that develop strategy and provide direction. Nor would I consider their pay to be either incentive or motivation.

Then you're a fool. Operation Northwoods[1] talked about killing American civilians on American soil. It had the backing of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the CIA, and the Secretary of Defense. So let's not think that there isn't precedent.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#257

Post by willvarfar »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #199
bunderbunder wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's really nothing extraordinary here; it's just boring old business-as-usual American politics. Consider reactions to the idea that we cancel the Joint Strike Fighter program. Long story short, every politician who had a contractor working on the project in his constituency started making noise about all the jobs that would be lost if we were to shut down the program. No secret conspiracy; that was an open debat…

We know that people go after profits. Nothing extraordinary here. What is extraordinary is the assertion that people acted unethically and (probably) also illegally.

What part is illegal?

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#258

Post by d23 »

hawleyal wrote: post #206
sethbannon wrote: post #12

The way America is conducting the war on terror is both self-defeating and morally repugnant.

War cannot be conducted any other way.

The article's premise is silly -- pure and simple. If you believe war is justified in some cases, then there will be casualties. If a wedding had been hit in Germany toward the beginning of WWII, would we say US involvement should have ceased?

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#259

Post by d23 »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #253
rdtsc wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is profitable. If terrorists disappeared tomorrow. Let's say we use our surgical strike weapons to target every cell every member, and in one hour they are gone. What would happen? Billions of dollars disappear from the pockets of everyone in the chain. Military contractors, drone maintenance, promotions, bonuses, career advancements, no more completed missions, medals, no job to go to. So the direct financial and…

You realize that the fiction of a coherent "Military Industrial Complex" has been debunked several times right? One by the General Accounting Office showed that military contractors actually had higher profits in peacetime than wartime because they got money for 'research' and didn't have to actually produce any product.

No, I didn't realize that. But if you have some credible sources, I'd love to read it.

Re: If a Drone Strike Hit an American Wedding We'd Ground Our Fleet

#260

Post by d23 »

willvarfar wrote: post #257
cscurmudgeon wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know that people go after profits. Nothing extraordinary here. What is extraordinary is the assertion that people acted unethically and (probably) also illegally.

What part is illegal?

I'm guessing cscurmudgeon is arguing that it isn't.
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